Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

Spotlite

Senior Member
Actually I don't agree with what you are saying at all. You should get that same understanding from all spiritual books if you truly had any sort of special understanding.
I’m ok with not agreeing, that isn’t a qualifier in determining right / wrong.
 
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Israel

Senior Member
When’s the last time you offered this lecture to your young earth creationist brethren?
What lecture is in the question regarding justification for presumptuousness? I said it sounded as though you were saying...with sufficient evidence (of whatever) presumptuousness would be warranted.
 
Thread starter #184
What lecture is in the question regarding justification for presumptuousness? I said it sounded as though you were saying...with sufficient evidence (of whatever) presumptuousness would be warranted.
The lecture was your original post that I replied to. You’ve got people who think the earth is 6,000 years old and men coexisted with the dinosaurs because of Genesis but you are here telling people who were once believers about being stuck on presumptions.
 

Israel

Senior Member
In regards to presumptuousness:

An apt description of most Christians.
Am I going out on a limb to see that comment as finding presumptuousness not commendable?
Certainly not when it refuses to give way to evidence.
Thinking "certainly not" meant I was not going out on a limb...when there is a refusal to give way to evidence...to me implying that if there is sufficient evidence...one is then justified in being presumptuous. Which I expressed as:

That sounds to my ear that presumptuousness is not unwarranted in the presence of some (or abundance) of evidence?
Which somehow then became a matter of questioning when I had last lectured "my brethren" in regards to what they might hold as young earth stance.

So then...if I can make any inference to what you may be asking, it would seem that a young earth stance implicitly implies one is being presumptuous?

Do you understand why I end that with a question mark?
 

Israel

Senior Member
And I do not disagree that a believer may act in as much presumption as anyone else...which was why I did not shy away from "liking" your response. To you it fit what you see as apt in your appraisal of "most" christians.
But, would I be presumptuous to say you haven't really ever met..."most" christians?


(But I can allow that you may be far more busy than I imagine)
 
Thread starter #188
And I do not disagree that a believer may act in as much presumption as anyone else...which was why I did not shy away from "liking" your response. To you it fit what you see as apt in your appraisal of "most" christians.
But, would I be presumptuous to say you haven't really ever met..."most" christians?
Haven’t met most in person nor do I need to.

I’ve been exposed to enough of them to be pretty confident in my assessment and spotlite here is only reinforcing it. I’m not surprised. It would take a lot to move me off of that assessment but i would consider any evidence presented to the contrary. What would it take to convince Ken Hamm or Ray Comfort they were wrong about evolution? What would it take to convince a lot of Christians the Bible isn’t inerrant or 100% historically accurate? For many the answer is nothing could move them from their preconceptions. Most of the people you are talking to on this forum once shared those preconceptions and we questioned them and decided we were wrong.
 
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Just getting around to these. This was a good read that seems to cover all the basis that the earlier link did not address. It's seems as though those who have never participated in Temple worship, are eager to go back to that, as if it's a icon of their belief, not realizing that it was a burden. It's interesting to me to view their reason Jesus is not the Messiah, and see how the NT addresses that issue. Interesting enough and expected, is that this link states they don't need a saviour or anyone to tell them how to be saved. They say they have the Torah for that. And that's the gospel in a nut shell, if they could keep it. They still think they can.
 
This last link, 90% of it is pointed towards a trinitarian Jesus. Not addressing much more.
Yes, I included that link because we had talked about God, Son of God , God and Son being seperate and them being one in the same.
I wanted to show the Jewish perspectives.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Not being identical does not necessarily mean contradictory but in this case the accounts are contradictory. Based on your reading of the gospels tell us what Jesus last words were before he died? You can't answer that question in a way that doesn't contradict at least one of the gospel accounts.
They say "and with his last breath, final words, etc" and then they mention his supposed words.
Just picking up where you asked me (not weeding through the entire thread) - since neither of you were able to explain your "contradictions"...………

They say:
Matthew 27: 5o Jesus when he had cried again with a loud voice yielded up the ghost.

Mark 15: 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice and gave up the ghost.

Luke 23: 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit and having said thus he gave up the ghost.

John 19: 30 When Jesus therefore had finished the vinegar he said it is finished and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost.


explain how you know that Jesus didn’t say all, most or none of the things considered his last words. He could have said them all???? Did any Writer say they quoted the entire conversation of Jesus verbatim???
I answered ^^^^^^^^^^^

We know that Atlas can agree on a general theme - (Atlas: If you tell me the general theme of the stories remain, that is he died and was resurrected, I think that is true of the stories.)

General theme according to the Writers - Jesus cried out with a loud voice, he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, he also said It is finished, he bowed his head and he gave up the ghost.

So, after the vinegar, show us where any Writer claimed to have a quote of every word and action of Jesus in complete detail until he gave up the ghost.

Now, to prove which story is contradictory - show us the complete text that you are using to prove what was said so you prove who left out, or added to their story.

I am sure you two are aware of the scenario that Walt pointed out on this thread??
 
Just picking up where you asked me (not weeding through the entire thread) - since neither of you were able to explain your "contradictions"...………

They say:
Matthew 27: 5o Jesus when he had cried again with a loud voice yielded up the ghost.

Mark 15: 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice and gave up the ghost.

Luke 23: 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit and having said thus he gave up the ghost.

John 19: 30 When Jesus therefore had finished the vinegar he said it is finished and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost.



I answered ^^^^^^^^^^^

We know that Atlas can agree on a general theme - (Atlas: If you tell me the general theme of the stories remain, that is he died and was resurrected, I think that is true of the stories.)

General theme according to the Writers - Jesus cried out with a loud voice, he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, he also said It is finished, he bowed his head and he gave up the ghost.

So, after the vinegar, show us where any Writer claimed to have a quote of every word and action of Jesus in complete detail until he gave up the ghost.

Now, to prove which story is contradictory - show us the complete text that you are using to prove what was said so you prove who left out, or added to their story.

I am sure you two are aware of the scenario that Walt pointed out on this thread??
During Crucifixion, he would not have died a hollywood death where he spoke his last words just before passing. Suffocation kills a person, near the end there is no air breathe in or expel in words. Jesus died pretty quickly compared to most. He may have said many or all of those things at some points along the way, but until it to the writers through oral stories, they had different endings. Because none of them were there to witness it.
The contradictions increase as the Gospels tell who was at/in the tomb. How the Roman guard was assigned and on and on and on.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
During Crucifixion, he would not have died a hollywood death where he spoke his last words just before passing. Suffocation kills a person, near the end there is no air breathe in or expel in words. Jesus died pretty quickly compared to most. He may have said many or all of those things at some points along the way, but until it to the writers through oral stories, they had different endings. Because none of them were there to witness it.
The contradictions increase as the Gospels tell who was at/in the tomb. How the Roman guard was assigned and on and on and on.
Please tell us how instant his death was and you know he remains quiet or went out verbally. Was it a 1 second death, 39 second, 2 minute, or so instant he didn’t have time to say “ouch”??? How many words can be spoken in 1 minute? How much was said before he bowed his head and couldn’t speak, how long was it after he bowed his head and gave up the ghost? Please enlighten us to what you know and how you know more than the Writers that were several thousand years closer to the event than you are. You gotta have more than “I’m sure” to prove a contradiction.

I sent you an example of how a spiritual connection works, you didn’t have an answer to it which is perfectly fine. If you don’t have an answer for something today, it’s literally impossible for you to know anything different about what the Writers say they received in spirit then. No answer is perfectly honest, and acceptable, everything else is just an opinion.
 
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Oh please tell us how instant his death was and you know he tensioned quiet. Was it a 1 second death, 39 second, 2 minute, or so instant he didn’t have time to say “ouch”??? How many words can be spoken in 1 minute? How much was said before he bowed his head and couldn’t speak, how long was it after he bowed his head and gave up the ghost? Please enlighten us to what you know and how you know more than the Writers that were several thousand years closer to the event than you are. You gotta have more than “I’m sure” to prove a contradiction. Your opinion is noted though.
Those writers "knew" then about what was said at the crucifixion, about the same as we know now about what was said at Valley Forge.
Read up on crucifixion, you can decide what is more likely than not then.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Those writers "knew" then about what was said at the crucifixion, about the same as we know now about what was said at Valley Forge.
Read up on crucifixion, you can decide what is more likely than not then.
Ok so you got nothing to prove your “contradiction”. Thanks for admitting that.
 
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