Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

Spotlite

Senior Member
Don't pat yourself too hard just yet, I am at work, I'll get to it later today
Lol ok. Well, it’s freezing rain here and I’m stuck in the office all day (work remotely) Most likely will be kicking off some stew or chili in a few to get the house smelling hungry. Later (y)
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Those are good bullethead. I guess I’m looking for more than another Writers opinion since we have to have evidence.
Meaning - what’s out there that you or any Writer in those links have to hang your hats on that you know for certain what Jesus did or didn’t say?
 
Thread starter #205
Just picking up where you asked me (not weeding through the entire thread) - since neither of you were able to explain your "contradictions"...………

They say:
Matthew 27: 5o Jesus when he had cried again with a loud voice yielded up the ghost.

Mark 15: 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice and gave up the ghost.

Luke 23: 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit and having said thus he gave up the ghost.

John 19: 30 When Jesus therefore had finished the vinegar he said it is finished and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost.



I answered ^^^^^^^^^^^

We know that Atlas can agree on a general theme - (Atlas: If you tell me the general theme of the stories remain, that is he died and was resurrected, I think that is true of the stories.)

General theme according to the Writers - Jesus cried out with a loud voice, he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, he also said It is finished, he bowed his head and he gave up the ghost.

So, after the vinegar, show us where any Writer claimed to have a quote of every word and action of Jesus in complete detail until he gave up the ghost.

Now, to prove which story is contradictory - show us the complete text that you are using to prove what was said so you prove who left out, or added to their story.

I am sure you two are aware of the scenario that Walt pointed out on this thread??
The contradictions were shown in post 129. Did you not read that post?

In Mark and Matthew he asks why god has forsaken him, then he cries out in a loud voice and dies. This portrays a Jesus that died in a state of distress and his last words are “my god, why hast thou forsaken me?”.

In Luke he doesn’t ask why god has forsaken him at all. He cries out in a loud voice and then says “father into thy hands I commend my spirit” and then he dies. This is a more serene Jesus than portrayed in Mark and Matthew and his last words are different.

In John he doesn’t cry out in a loud voice at all. He has a drink of vinegar and then says “It is finished” and bows his head and dies. Again we have a serene composed Jesus in contrast to the Jesus in Mark and Matthew.

Four gospels and three different accounts of what his last words were. This is not a general theme we are talking about here. What his last words were is a specific detail which each gospel attests to but only Mark and Matthew comport with one another. Luke and John both contradict every other gospel.

Now you can try to piece those together into a stereo gospel that none of the authors wrote and that makes sense and good luck with that. If he said one thing and then died then he couldn’t have said something different and then died. There is no getting around that.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
The contradictions were shown in post 129. Did you not read that post?

In Mark and Matthew he asks why god has forsaken him, then he cries out in a loud voice and dies. This portrays a Jesus that died in a state of distress and his last words are “my god, why hast thou forsaken me?”.

In Luke he doesn’t ask why god has forsaken him at all. He cries out in a loud voice and then says “father into thy hands I commend my spirit” and then he dies. This is a more serene Jesus than portrayed in Mark and Matthew and his last words are different.

In John he doesn’t cry out in a loud voice at all. He has a drink of vinegar and then says “It is finished” and bows his head and dies. Again we have a serene composed Jesus in contrast to the Jesus in Mark and Matthew.

Four gospels and three different accounts of what his last words were. This is not a general theme we are talking about here. What his last words were is a specific detail which each gospel attests to but only Mark and Matthew comport with one another. Luke and John both contradict every other gospel.

Now you can try to piece those together into a stereo gospel that none of the authors wrote and that makes sense and good luck with that. If he said one thing and then died then he couldn’t have said something different and then died. There is no getting around that.
Reread my post again, slowly. Right now, you only have an opinion, nothing factual.
What you got to prove he didn’t cry out with a loud voice after the vinegar and before it is finished?

We can assume perception of individuals in the writing detail. But to debunk it, you must be holding onto some solid evidence of everything he said. Let’s see it.
 
Thread starter #207
“General theme according to the Writers - Jesus cried out with a loud voice, he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, he also said It is finished, he bowed his head and he gave up the ghost.”

^No gospel says this. In Mark and Matthew he dies after crying out in a loud voice without saying anything more. Luke says he gives up the ghost after saying “into thy hands I commend my spirit”. John makes no mention of him crying out in a loud voice at all and only says “It is finished” and then dies.


Reread my post again, slowly.
Reread those scriptures again. :bounce:
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
“General theme according to the Writers - Jesus cried out with a loud voice, he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, he also said It is finished, he bowed his head and he gave up the ghost.”

^No gospel says this. In Mark and Matthew he dies after crying out in a loud voice without saying anything more. Luke says he gives up the ghost after saying “into thy hands I commend my spirit”. John makes no mention of him crying out in a loud voice at all and only says “It is finished” and then dies.




Reread those scriptures again. :bounce:
Lol ok you got nothing. I figured as much :)
 
Thread starter #209
Reread my post again, slowly. Right now, you only have an opinion, nothing factual.
What you got to prove he didn’t cry out with a loud voice after the vinegar and before it is finished?

We can assume perception of individuals in the writing detail. But to debunk it, you must be holding onto some solid evidence of everything he said. Let’s see it.
What is factual is that we have three differing accounts of his last words. I don’t know which if any are historically accurate. I just know they can’t all be accurate and it may be that none of them are. Best case scenario Mark and Matthew are accurate which would mean Luke and John are not. Two out of four gospels got it wrong. If either Luke or John are accurate then three out of four gospels got it wrong.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Declaring victory for yourself doesn’t help you here. I know you see the contradictions for yourself based on your selective summarization. You’re making yourself look silly at this point. ;)
Not declaring victory, I’m not that arrogant.

The whole concept pointed out over the last few pages were about individual perception. Unless you have a solid transcript somewhere to prove what was said and what wasn’t, you don’t have the evidence to back up your contradiction claim.

Now, take it to a spiritual connection (which is what’s believed that the spirit breathed words on a Writer) and personal examples have been given here before. Non believers won’t assign that to a deity, since they don’t know what to assign it to, most just go with “nothing” and there it rest. Since you don’t even know how or what to assign it to, how can you even know it’s not even happening???

That’s not victory, just pointing out you only gave an opinion based on what you believe / disbelieve. Now, not so fast on a diversion attempt to make others look silly. Pay attention to what you require as evidence and proof from believers and what you’re attempting to use as proof. If you’re saying they’re contradicting the last words of Jesus, show us the text containing the entire list of the last words of Jesus. Until then, you’re no different than us, you either believe or you don’t.
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #212
I’d be happy to read your fifth gospel that uses the other four as sources and tries to reconcile the differences between them. We can call it the gospel of Spot. Maybe it could even be canonized. Should be fun!
 
Thread starter #213
Not declaring victory, I’m not that arrogant. Just pointing out the fact that your option is just that.

The whole concept pointed out over the last few pages were about individual perception. Unless you have a solid transcript somewhere to prove what was said and what wasn’t, you do t have the evidence to back up your contradiction claim.

Now, take it to a spiritual connection (which is what’s believed that the spirit breathed words on a Writer) and personal examples have been given here before. Non believers won’t assign that to a deity, since they don’t know what to assign it to, most just go with “nothing” and there it rest. Since you don’t even know how or what to assign it to, how can you even know it’s not even happening???
This isn’t about perception this is about what actually happened. It’s your belief that these accounts are historically accurate, not mine. The problem here is they can’t all be historically accurate. I don’t need to know what Jesus actually said to know that. The differing accounts are all I need.

Now you claim to have a special “spiritual understanding” that us non-believers with our “carnal understanding” (whatever that means) lack. So with your special understanding I will ask you this very simple question once again, what were Jesus last words? No long drawn out convoluted explanation is needed. Just tell us exactly what his last words were. Then we can compare that to what the gospels say.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
I think and maybe Im wrong here but.....
Atlas and Bullet are coming from the angle of -
We are taught/told the words are GOD'S words.
Not Luke's words, not John's words, not.... But GOD's words.
John, Luke, whoever were merely holding the quill but it was GOD doing the writing through their pen.
In which case, logically, the words should be EXACTLY the same.
If there is ANY difference theres really only a couple of choices =
1. They are NOT God's words. They are Johh's/Luke's/whoever's version of God's supposed words.
2. God wrote through the different writers different (no matter how small the differences may be) versions of the same story.

Of course different people can and do come up with different versions of the same thing they see or hear........... because they are human.
That would make the Bible human's words not God's words.
 
Thread starter #215
I think and maybe Im wrong here but.....
Atlas and Bullet are coming from the angle of -
We are taught/told the words are GOD'S words.
Not Luke's words, not John's words, not.... But GOD's words.
John, Luke, whoever were merely holding the quill but it was GOD doing the writing through their pen.
In which case, logically, the words should be EXACTLY the same.
If there is ANY difference theres really only a couple of choices =
1. They are NOT God's words. They are Johh's/Luke's/whoever's version of God's supposed words.
2. God wrote through the different writers different (no matter how small the differences may be) versions of the same story.

Of course different people can and do come up with different versions of the same thing they see or hear........... because they are human.
That would make the Bible human's words not God's words.
I don’t set the bar that high. I think most believers would say the words are inspired not dictated which would give the author a little wiggle room. I just don’t see enough wiggle room to cover the issue in this case. If you have the same accounts then you should be able to give those separate accounts to people who aren’t aware of the others and when you ask them questions based on those accounts you should not get contradictory answers. Someone who only read Mark or Matthew if asked what Jesus last words were would say one thing. Someone who only read Luke would say something completely different. And someone who only read John would say something different still.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
I don’t set the bar that high. I think most believers would say the words are inspired not dictated which would give the author a little wiggle room. I just don’t see enough wiggle room to cover the issue in this case. If you have the same accounts then you should be able to give those separate accounts to people who aren’t aware of the others and when you ask them questions based on those accounts you should not get contradictory answers. Someone who only read Mark or Matthew if asked what Jesus last words were would say one thing. Someone who only read Luke would say something completely different. And someone who only read John would say something different still.
Would make an interesting question to ask the believers here although on this particular sub forum we probably wouldn't get enough responses.
I was taught the Bible is God's words. Not anybody's version or inspiration of God's words. So no wiggle room.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I think and maybe Im wrong here but.....
Atlas and Bullet are coming from the angle of -
We are taught/told the words are GOD'S words.
Not Luke's words, not John's words, not.... But GOD's words.
John, Luke, whoever were merely holding the quill but it was GOD doing the writing through their pen.
In which case, logically, the words should be EXACTLY the same.
If there is ANY difference theres really only a couple of choices =
1. They are NOT God's words. They are Johh's/Luke's/whoever's version of God's supposed words.
2. God wrote through the different writers different (no matter how small the differences may be) versions of the same story.

Of course different people can and do come up with different versions of the same thing they see or hear........... because they are human.
That would make the Bible human's words not God's words.
They are believed to be God’s words. But there is no indication given anyplace to clarify if God only gave portions of things to different Writers or if the Writers added or eliminated words. If they added or eliminated anything, then it’s Writers words. Without a transcript we have nothing to prove / disprove any of that.
The point that Atlas and bullet wants to make is that the Writers are simply contradictory, ultimately pointing to writing based on stories they heard. They don’t know that, the believe that.
 
Thread starter #218
They are believed to be God’s words. But there is no indication given anyplace to clarify if God only gave portions of things to different Writers or if the Writers added or eliminated words. If they added or eliminated anything, then it’s Writers words. Without a transcript we have nothing to prove / disprove any of that.
The point that Atlas and bullet wants to make is that the Writers are simply contradictory, ultimately pointing to writing based on stories they heard. They don’t know that, the believe that.
I explained in my last post how we know that. ;) An individual answering the question based on a single account will give a different answer from someone basing their answer on a different account. If you ask any of them based on a single gospel how Jesus was killed they would all agree he was crucified because the gospels don’t contradict on that point.

The accounts clearly state that he said what they say he said and then he died. They leave no room for insertion and if you do insert anything into their account then you are altering their account.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
They are believed to be God’s words. But there is no indication given anyplace to clarify if God only gave portions of things to different Writers or if the Writers added or eliminated words. If they added or eliminated anything, then it’s Writers words. Without a transcript we have nothing to prove / disprove any of that.
The point that Atlas and bullet wants to make is that the Writers are simply contradictory, ultimately pointing to writing based on stories they heard. They don’t know that, the believe that.
I can see both sides of the debate.
I think I can agree that the words can be a bit different without actually contradicting each other -
"The flower is red".
"The flower is crimson".
Different words. Overall means pretty much the same thing.
But not exactly the same thing.
Is that good enough when it comes to God's words?
Yes and No in my opinion.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I explained in my last post how we know that. ;) An individual answering the question based on a single account will give a different answer from someone basing their answer on a different account. If you ask any of them based on a single gospel how Jesus was killed they would all agree he was crucified because the gospels don’t contradict on that point.

The accounts clearly state that he said what they say he said and then he died. They leave no room for insertion and if you do insert anything into their account then you are altering their account.
The last deer I shot ran 10 to 12 feet, fell on his right side, and kicked several times and died with his tongue stuck out.

I told my buddy he ran several feet before he took a dirt nap. I told my son he ran a few yards and crashed. I told my wife he didn’t go far before he was kicking around.

Which one is contradictory?
 
Top