Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

Thread starter #221
The last deer I shot ran 10 to 12 feet, fell on his right side, and kicked several times and died with his tongue stuck out.

I told my buddy he ran several feet before he took a dirt nap. I told my son he ran a few yards and crashed. I told my wife he didn’t go far before he was kicking around.

Which one is contradictory?
You’re trying to draw an analogy between accounts that corroborate and accounts that do not corroborate.

Still waiting for you to tell us what his last words were. :pop:
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
You’re trying to draw an analogy between accounts that corroborate and accounts that do not corroborate.

Still waiting for you to tell us what his last words were. :pop:
Lol you’re good at diversions!!! You’re the one that claims they’re contradictory so the ball is in your court here. You kind of need something detailing the complete list of words so you can prove the contradiction. I’m neither denying or admitting anything, I just simply asked how do you know he didn’t say all those things after the vinegar and before he died. Personally, I believe he said all those and maybe some more words. One would be foolish to think a man remains quiet, speechless and not much to say when facing death.

My only point is the only way to know which one of my deer stories is contradictory is to know the whole story from myself. The others only know what I told and gave them, unless they saw it. Even seeing it they can forget some detail. So none are contradictory unless they add to it. No one is going to know that except me the one telling the story. Nothing you can prove / disprove unless you talked to me about it. All you can do is believe it or not.

You’re talking about 4 books supposedly written 50 to 100 years AD - how do you know some of the accounts were not witnessed / given by some of the crowd standing from afar off. People are still telling their story of events they saw or heard from the 40”s.

50 years later I’m sure some detail was forgotten, I’m sure an eyewitness can live longer than 50 to 100 years old.
 
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Spotlite

Senior Member
Of course different people can and do come up with different versions of the same thing they see or hear........... because they are human.
That would make the Bible human's words not God's words.
Some are hung up with believing that every single word in the Bible is the “quoted” word from God.
Every sermon preached this last Sunday was supposed to be a word from God. I highly doubt any preacher chained to give an exact quote from God. If one wants to call that mans words, I don’t take issue with them over that. That’s a belief / disbelief issue.
 
Thread starter #224
“So none are contradictory unless they add to it.”

Which is exactly what you would have to do to every gospel to get them on the same page with each other. Every gospel is giving its own different version of the event. That is not even in dispute here. You want to reconcile them by combining it all together. In some cases that may be possible but not in this case because each gospel clearly states that he said what he said and then he died.
 
Thread starter #225
If this were any other context than a religious book you dare not question the veracity if we wouldn’t even be having this debate.

What was the last thing John Doe said before he died?

Answer 1. He let out a loud cry and breathed his last breath.

Answer 2. He said “father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Answer 3. He said, “It is finished” and bowing his head he yielded up his spirit.

If any one of these are true accounts then the other two are not because they each give a different account for what happened immediately preceding the moment of death. We don’t need to know which if any are actually true to know that they can’t all be true. Best case scenario only one of them is.
 
Thread starter #226
If this were any other context than a religious book you dare not question the veracity if we wouldn’t even be having this debate.

What was the last thing John Doe said before he died?

Answer 1. He let out a loud cry and breathed his last breath.

Answer 2. He said “father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Answer 3. He said, “It is finished” and bowing his head he yielded up his spirit.

If any one of these are true accounts then the other two are not because they each give a different account for what happened immediately preceding the moment of death. We don’t need to know which if any are actually true to know that they can’t all be true. Best case scenario only one of them is.
And if we were talking about this in the context of anyone else you would not look at those claims and conclude they comport with one another. This is just another example of a believer refusing to challenge their preconceptions of biblical infallibility even when the contradictions are staring them in the face.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
“So none are contradictory unless they add to it.”

Which is exactly what you would have to do to every gospel to get them on the same page with each other. Every gospel is giving its own different version of the event. That is not even in dispute here. You want to reconcile them by combining it all together. In some cases that may be possible but not in this case because each gospel clearly states that he said what he said and then he died.
They’re telling it as they saw it heard it. Since you didn’t eyewitness the story they’re telling, you’re left with 3 opinions, believe it, disbelieve it, or find the full unaltered version and compare. That’s all I’m saying. You believe they’re contradictory, but you know you can’t prove it.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
And if we were talking about this in the context of anyone else you would not look at those claims and conclude they comport with one another. This is just another example of a believer refusing to challenge their preconceptions of biblical infallibility even when the contradictions are staring them in the face.
No, I know what happens in a spiritual setting and there’s nothing you could possibly, remotely, phantom or imagine with your descriptions of what you think / know is happening / not happening.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
“So none are contradictory unless they add to it.”

Which is exactly what you would have to do to every gospel to get them on the same page with each other. Every gospel is giving its own different version of the event. That is not even in dispute here. You want to reconcile them by combining it all together. In some cases that may be possible but not in this case because each gospel clearly states that he said what he said and then he died.
Unless you have a complete detailed transcript to compare the 4 Gospels with, you’re pushing a chain uphill with your contradiction theory. Not much need in cow trailing with all the added explanations, you either have it or not to prove your claim?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
If this were any other context than a religious book you dare not question the veracity if we wouldn’t even be having this debate.

What was the last thing John Doe said before he died?

Answer 1. He let out a loud cry and breathed his last breath.

Answer 2. He said “father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Answer 3. He said, “It is finished” and bowing his head he yielded up his spirit.

If any one of these are true accounts then the other two are not because they each give a different account for what happened immediately preceding the moment of death. We don’t need to know which if any are actually true to know that they can’t all be true. Best case scenario only one of them is.
I don’t know Atlas. I made no claim of knowing anything. I asked how do you know he didn’t take the vinegar, say all those two things in that loud cry, and bowed his head to die? Or did he take the vinegar, say those two things, then cry out loud, bowed his head and died?

Is it possible, not possible? Did he say both, one or neither? How do you know?? You’re making the claim, not me.
 
Thread starter #231
Unless you have a complete detailed transcript to compare the 4 Gospels with, you’re pushing a chain uphill with your contradiction theory. Not much need in cow trailing with all the added explanations, you either have it or not to prove your claim?
Simply not true that you need to know what happened to know that incompatible accounts are contradictory.
 
Thread starter #232
I don’t know Atlas. I made no claim of knowing anything. I asked how do you know he didn’t take the vinegar, say all those two things in that loud cry, and bowed his head to die? Or did he take the vinegar, say those two things, then cry out loud, bowed his head and died?

Is it possible, not possible? Did he say both, one or neither? How do you know?? You’re making the claim, not me.
We know he didn’t say all of those things in the loud cry because they make a distinction between the cry and what he said except for John which makes no mention of a cry at all.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
I think at the root of what you guys are battling over is the meaning of "contradiction".
Fact - the words are not the same/are different. They do not agree with each other as to what was actually said.
Fact - The different words tell the same story in that words were spoken and Jesus "died". The different words don't change that.
I think you are going to go round and round until you agree on what "contradiction" means.
 
Thread starter #234
I think at the root of what you guys are battling over is the meaning of "contradiction".
Fact - the words are not the same/are different. They do not agree with each other as to what was actually said.
Fact - The different words tell the same story in that words were spoken and Jesus "died". The different words don't change that.
I think you are going to go round and round until you agree on what "contradiction" means.
The problem is that we are talking about what he said immediately preceding his death. None of the passages leave room in their account for additions.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
The problem is that we are talking about what he said immediately preceding his death. None of the passages leave room in their account for additions.
So that would fall under this fact -
Fact - the words are not the same/are different. They do not agree with each other as to what was actually said.
Spot is using this fact -
Fact - The different words tell the same story in that words were spoken and Jesus "died". The different words don't change that.
Both of your points(facts) are valid at the same time.
 
Thread starter #236
So that would fall under this fact -

Spot is using this fact -

Both of your points(facts) are valid at the same time.
The second point is not what is in dispute. If they all said “he said something and died” there would be no contradiction. The contradiction comes from the incompatible details in their accounts. If we go back to post 225 nobody is going to claim all of those answers could be true at the same time because each statement is claimed to be immediately followed by death. That precludes the insertion of additional statements.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
The second point is not what is in dispute. If they all said “he said something and died” there would be no contradiction. The contradiction comes from the incompatible details in their accounts. If we go back to post 225 nobody is going to claim all of those answers could be true at the same time because each statement is claimed to be immediately followed by death. That precludes the insertion of additional statements.
By the way, Im just sticking my nose in so feel free to tell me to mind my own business :wink:
But from where I sit... Spot has already acquiesced that the words are different.... so you "win" on that point.
Do you acquiesce that the differing words still tell the same story? If so and I think you would have pretty hard time arguing that they don't, then you are both winners :lovey:
:rofl:
 
Thread starter #239
By the way, Im just sticking my nose in so feel free to tell me to mind my own business :wink:
But from where I sit... Spot has already acquiesced that the words are different.... so you "win" on that point.
Do you acquiesce that the differing words still tell the same story? If so and I think you would have pretty hard time arguing that they don't, then you are both winners :lovey:
:rofl:
Same in some respects and different in others.
 
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