Did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." Polycarp Phillipians 12:2
Just a terrible biased translation. One only needs to read chapter 1 to see what Polycarp believes. Try this one; http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0136.htm
 

Madman

Senior Member
Jesus as God evolved not from oral passing but rather from our interpretations of the NT writings. In other words, they, the writers did not believe Jesus was God, yet later.... men discover a triune god within their writings. As if, it were inspired to be there. Jesus as God evolving is hard to prove that it was not, yet evolved. However, the Holy Spirit as a 3rd co equal person of the God head, was without doubt, without question, without dispute, not a church belief until after 325. The proof is easily seen for anyone whom is brave enough to look into it. And the triune godhead requires it to be so, otherwise, there is no trinity. Clearly not the "gospel first entrusted to the saints".
That does not explain why or why not the authors of the 4 gospels wrote Jesus said different things on the cross.
No he didn't
 
Just a terrible biased translation. One only needs to read chapter 1 to see what Polycarp believes. Tr
"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." Polycarp Phillipians 12:2
Notice how ridiculous this translation is. Easy to see. It starts with "the God and Father of our Lord". Jesus has a God. Can we all agree that there is a push to insist through interpretation that Jesus is God.
 
Notice how ridiculous this translation is. Easy to see. It starts with "the God and Father of our Lord". Jesus has a God. Can we all agree that there is a push to insist through interpretation that Jesus is God.
Once we realize that 95% of these so called Jesus is God texts are mistranslations forced into scripture, we realize, it's not a mistake. It's corruption
 
Chapter 12 12:1 Confido enim vos bene exercitatos esse in sacris literis et nihil vos latet; mihi autem non est concessum. Modo, ut his scripturis dictum est, irascimini et nolite peccare, et sol non occidat super iracundiam vestram. Beatus, qui meminerit; quod ego credo esse in vobis. ¹ For I trust that ye are well versed in the Sacred Scriptures, and that nothing is hidden from you; but to me this privilege is not yet granted. It is declared then in these Scriptures, “Be ye angry, and sin not,” and, “Let not the sun go down upon your wrath.” Happy is he who remembers this, which I believe to be the case with you. 12:2 Deus autem et pater domini nostri Iesu Christi, et ipse sempiternus pontifex, dei filius Iesus Christus, aedificet vos in fide et veritate et in omni mansuetudine et sine iracundia et in patientia et in longanimitate et tolerantia et castitate; et det vobis sortem et partem inter sanctos suos et nobis vobiscum et omnibus, qui sunt sub caelo, qui credituri sunt in dominum nostrum et deum Iesum Christum et in ipsius patrem, qui resuscitavit eum a mortuis. ² But may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ Himself, who is the Son of God, and our everlasting High Priest, build you up in faith and truth, and in all meekness, gentleness, patience, longsuffering, forbearance, and purity; and may He bestow on you a lot and portion among His saints, and on us with you, and on all who are under heaven, who shall believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, and in His Father, who “raised Him from the dead. 12:3 Pro omnibus sanctis orate. Orate etiam pro regibus et potestatibus et principibus atque pro persequentibus et odientibus vos et pro inimicis crucis, ut fructus vester manifestus sit in omnibus, ut sitis in illo perfecti. ³ Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings, and potentates, and princes, and for those that persecute and hate you, and for the enemies of the cross, that your fruit may be manifest to all, and that ye may be perfect in
 
Everything I am finding does not include the corruption, but I assume it's out there. So we have 2 versions. With and without. Thus we have to look at supporting context before and after..... and it clearly, 100% never eludes to Polycarp ever claiming Jesus as God. Yet those whom try to force Jesus as God into antiquity, as if to validate their belief, are not doing so out of ignorance. They are corrupt
 
Everything I am finding does not include the corruption, but I assume it's out there. So we have 2 versions. With and without. Thus we have to look at supporting context before and after..... and it clearly, 100% never eludes to Polycarp ever claiming Jesus as God. Yet those whom try to force Jesus as God into antiquity, as if to validate their belief, are not doing so out of ignorance. They are corrupt
Chap. xii.—Exhortation to various graces.
For I trust that ye are well versed in the sacred Scriptures, and that nothing is hid from you; but to me this privilege is not yet granted.[66] It is declared then in these Scriptures, "Be ye angry, and sin not,"[67] and, "Let not the sun go down upon your wrath."[68] Happy is he who remembers[69] this, which I believe to be the case with you. But may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ Himself, who is the Son of God, and our everlasting High Priest, build you up in faith and truth, and in all meekness, gentleness, patience, long-suffering, forbearance, and purity; and may He bestow on you a lot and portion among His saints, and on us with you, and on all that are under heaven, who shall believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, and in His Father, who "raised Him from the dead."[70] Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings,[71] and potentates, and princes, and for those that persecute and hate you,[72] and for the enemies of the cross, that your fruit may be manifest to all, and that ye may be perfect in Him.


Here is another without;
 
Polycarp did not believe Jesus was God, however, he may have been the last. We just can't tell with corruption going on as to how much our writings have been corrupted. However, since Polycarp was only corrupted in this instance only, I ask why not more, thus leaning toward those church fathers after him, having much more instances, may be that they did belive jesus as God. Statements as "the blood of God" are context... not mistranslations. Was context added? Probably not. They did not add context to Polycarp, so likely not elsewhere
 
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? ... Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.Matthew 27:46-50

Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46

It is finished.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30
 
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? ... Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.Matthew 27:46-50

Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46

It is finished.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30
What we have are 7 so called last words. All varying. All, actually reflective of what the writer wants to convey, what he assumes Jesus said... or what oral tradition was passed on to him and he wrote it. But none of it is correct.... I do believe Jesus has a God, and the writer of your verse, "My God, my God, why have thou forsaken me", would be the assumption I would have of his thoughts, however, Jesus never cried out "in a loud voice". Crucifixion victims died of lack of oxygen. There would be no lungs power to even speak.... not even whisper. Google death by crucifixion because my memory can't recall how to explain it. It was suffocation. Jesus died at the ninth hour, the guards not having broken his legs in order that he suffocate quicker, yet his death was faster because of his prior exhaustion of having been beaten and such leading up to the cross. Crucifixion victims could try to push/ pull up to grab a breath of air which was counter productive that it magnified the pain being that they were nailed, not standing on or grabbing a nail by hand. A breath... not enough air to form a sentence
 
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Spotlite

Senior Member
Once we realize that 95% of these so called Jesus is God texts are mistranslations forced into scripture, we realize, it's not a mistake. It's corruption
Atheist or Agnostic??? Not much difference in the two but most usually claim one. Or Apologetic of another religion? Definitely not Apologetic for Christianity.
 
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Spotlite

Senior Member
That does not explain why or why not the authors of the 4 gospels wrote Jesus said different things on the cross.
below does. Perception of individuals. Not uncommon. It doesn’t mean the cross didn’t happen.
Take your above ^ "qualifications" and apply them to modern day.
A "witness" testifies to Congress.
Literally 30 seconds, not 1 year, not 100 years, but 30 seconds later.... an R walks out and a D walks out and gives polar opposite opinions of what they just heard.
How da ya figure that can be?
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
below does. Perception of individuals. Not uncommon. It doesn’t mean the cross didn’t happen.
I agree with your point.
But you have to go deeper.
Many times perception is guided by what we WANT to hear. What we WANT to be true. The story that we WANT to be told. The story that supports our side/agenda.
Different perceptions can be a "honest" difference.
Different perceptions can also be "dishonest" differences in that facts and evidence get shoved to the side and ones agenda becomes the controlling factor.
The only way to avoid/minimize the "perception" issue is to rely on evidence, facts and proof.
 

Israel

Senior Member
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. KJV

and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory! YLT
 

Israel

Senior Member
Literally 30 seconds, not 1 year, not 100 years, but 30 seconds later.... an R walks out and a D walks out and gives polar opposite opinions of what they just heard.
How da ya figure that can be?
I agree with your point.
But you have to go deeper.
Many times perception is guided by what we WANT to hear. What we WANT to be true. The story that we WANT to be told. The story that supports our side/agenda.
Different perceptions can be a "honest" difference.
Different perceptions can also be "dishonest" differences in that facts and evidence get shoved to the side and ones agenda becomes the controlling factor.
The only way to avoid/minimize the "perception" issue is to rely on evidence, facts and proof.
Might it not be the very "D" and "R" by the name, attributed to and/or accepted by the hearer that might have the greater influence?
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Might it not be the very "D" and "R" by the name, attributed to and/or accepted by the hearer that might have the greater influence?
Absolutely.
The teller AND the hearer both have a responsibility.
Only facts and proof, as boring or cold or unspiritual as that might be, can minimize all these human traits/agendas.
And even facts and proof can be muddy waters as facts and proof dont necessarily remain facts or proof forever.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
True but it does mean the Bible is not 100% historically accurate.
Depends I guess. Maybe the stories really happened, MN subs one is completely accurate, the other 3 differ in ways because of what they remember. I don’t believe any of this in any way makes the stories false. I realize it doesn’t make them accurate either. Just acknowledging that difference in story lines happens when different writers write.
 
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