Spotlite
Resident Homesteader
You’ve made a claim about discrepancies in the last words of Jesus. Show your discrepancies at question.So answer the question.
You’ve made a claim about discrepancies in the last words of Jesus. Show your discrepancies at question.So answer the question.
I’m ok with not agreeing, that isn’t a qualifier in determining right / wrong.Actually I don't agree with what you are saying at all. You should get that same understanding from all spiritual books if you truly had any sort of special understanding.
When’s the last time you offered this lecture to your young earth creationist brethren?
What lecture is in the question regarding justification for presumptuousness? I said it sounded as though you were saying...with sufficient evidence (of whatever) presumptuousness would be warranted.
atlashunter said:
An apt description of most Christians.
Israel said:
Am I going out on a limb to see that comment as finding presumptuousness not commendable?
atlashunter said:
Certainly not when it refuses to give way to evidence.
That sounds to my ear that presumptuousness is not unwarranted in the presence of some (or abundance) of evidence?
You’ve made a claim about discrepancies in the last words of Jesus. Show your discrepancies at question.
And I do not disagree that a believer may act in as much presumption as anyone else...which was why I did not shy away from "liking" your response. To you it fit what you see as apt in your appraisal of "most" christians.
But, would I be presumptuous to say you haven't really ever met..."most" christians?
It does when good reasons as to why or why not are offered along with it.I’m ok with but agreeing, that isn’t a qualifier in determining right / wrong.
Lol you might have bought itYeah if I bought the bull snort I'd think differently....well no duh!
Just getting around to these. This was a good read that seems to cover all the basis that the earlier link did not address. It's seems as though those who have never participated in Temple worship, are eager to go back to that, as if it's a icon of their belief, not realizing that it was a burden. It's interesting to me to view their reason Jesus is not the Messiah, and see how the NT addresses that issue. Interesting enough and expected, is that this link states they don't need a saviour or anyone to tell them how to be saved. They say they have the Torah for that. And that's the gospel in a nut shell, if they could keep it. They still think they can.
This last link, 90% of it is pointed towards a trinitarian Jesus. Not addressing much more.
Yes, I included that link because we had talked about God, Son of God , God and Son being seperate and them being one in the same.This last link, 90% of it is pointed towards a trinitarian Jesus. Not addressing much more.
Not being identical does not necessarily mean contradictory but in this case the accounts are contradictory. Based on your reading of the gospels tell us what Jesus last words were before he died? You can't answer that question in a way that doesn't contradict at least one of the gospel accounts.
They say "and with his last breath, final words, etc" and then they mention his supposed words.
I answered ^^^^^^^^^^^explain how you know that Jesus didn’t say all, most or none of the things considered his last words. He could have said them all???? Did any Writer say they quoted the entire conversation of Jesus verbatim???
During Crucifixion, he would not have died a hollywood death where he spoke his last words just before passing. Suffocation kills a person, near the end there is no air breathe in or expel in words. Jesus died pretty quickly compared to most. He may have said many or all of those things at some points along the way, but until it to the writers through oral stories, they had different endings. Because none of them were there to witness it.Just picking up where you asked me (not weeding through the entire thread) - since neither of you were able to explain your "contradictions"...………
They say:
Matthew 27: 5o Jesus when he had cried again with a loud voice yielded up the ghost.
Mark 15: 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice and gave up the ghost.
Luke 23: 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit and having said thus he gave up the ghost.
John 19: 30 When Jesus therefore had finished the vinegar he said it is finished and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost.
I answered ^^^^^^^^^^^
We know that Atlas can agree on a general theme - (Atlas: If you tell me the general theme of the stories remain, that is he died and was resurrected, I think that is true of the stories.)
General theme according to the Writers - Jesus cried out with a loud voice, he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, he also said It is finished, he bowed his head and he gave up the ghost.
So, after the vinegar, show us where any Writer claimed to have a quote of every word and action of Jesus in complete detail until he gave up the ghost.
Now, to prove which story is contradictory - show us the complete text that you are using to prove what was said so you prove who left out, or added to their story.
I am sure you two are aware of the scenario that Walt pointed out on this thread??
Please tell us how instant his death was and you know he remains quiet or went out verbally. Was it a 1 second death, 39 second, 2 minute, or so instant he didn’t have time to say “ouch”??? How many words can be spoken in 1 minute? How much was said before he bowed his head and couldn’t speak, how long was it after he bowed his head and gave up the ghost? Please enlighten us to what you know and how you know more than the Writers that were several thousand years closer to the event than you are. You gotta have more than “I’m sure” to prove a contradiction.During Crucifixion, he would not have died a hollywood death where he spoke his last words just before passing. Suffocation kills a person, near the end there is no air breathe in or expel in words. Jesus died pretty quickly compared to most. He may have said many or all of those things at some points along the way, but until it to the writers through oral stories, they had different endings. Because none of them were there to witness it.
The contradictions increase as the Gospels tell who was at/in the tomb. How the Roman guard was assigned and on and on and on.
Those writers "knew" then about what was said at the crucifixion, about the same as we know now about what was said at Valley Forge.Oh please tell us how instant his death was and you know he tensioned quiet. Was it a 1 second death, 39 second, 2 minute, or so instant he didn’t have time to say “ouch”??? How many words can be spoken in 1 minute? How much was said before he bowed his head and couldn’t speak, how long was it after he bowed his head and gave up the ghost? Please enlighten us to what you know and how you know more than the Writers that were several thousand years closer to the event than you are. You gotta have more than “I’m sure” to prove a contradiction. Your opinion is noted though.
Ok so you got nothing to prove your “contradiction”. Thanks for admitting that.Those writers "knew" then about what was said at the crucifixion, about the same as we know now about what was said at Valley Forge.
Read up on crucifixion, you can decide what is more likely than not then.
Don't pat yourself too hard just yet, I am at work, I'll get to it later todayOk so you got nothing to prove your “contradiction”. Thanks for admitting that.