Does this apply to Christians?

It was in reference to you not understanding how God could remove tares from national Israel the way he can from the world.
The parable says to leave them until after the harvest.

We now have tares living among the wheat in the world(kosmos). They will be living in the world until after the harvest. Matters not if the tares are living down the street, on a South Pacific Island, in the Church, or in national Israel.
None of them will be removed until after the Harvest. I would assume the harvest will come after the restoration of national Israel.

Again, I'm not saying you have to believe all this but you deny that it's a real belief. That's another problem I have with you.

You have over the years denied that my beliefs are real. I can't deny what I believe. I'm not asking you to believe what I believe. Just give me the respect I give you about your beliefs.
Is that what you have been trying to say all this time?
Your last few posts have attributed to me things I never said, and do not believe I inferred. That could easily be explained by the fact that I didn't know what you were talking about. If you previously made the above statement, prior to my informing you that I had given up, I certainly missed it. I suppose I should apologize for not reading you mind, if that is indeed of what am guilty. If you made clear that the above was what you were attempting to show from scripture, then I apologize for my failure to comprehend.

BTW, I am aware the belief that a literal restoration of Israel must necessarily precede the end of the Age. I do not recall having discussed that belief with you. I'm sure that, at this point, you realize that, having not known what you believe, I could not have denied your belief.
 
I wanted to add that you are a good and patient teacher. I will admit that you are well read in scripture. You have a firm foothold in the Reformed faith. I've learned a lot from you.

It's just that it's like at some point in our discussions you will suddenly deny that my beliefs are real or way out in left field. Like this discussion, right in the middle of it suddenly you can't comprehend my belief any longer. Yet it's a pretty mainstream held belief on the restoration of national Israel.

In the discussion on the Trinity, you accuse me of a always trying to divide God, yet I'm not even Trinitarian. I see more of a Oneness in God within the Oneness belief.
I just felt like that accusation was not needed within that discussion.

Most of our discussions will be going along pretty good then I'll interject something. A feeling or a belief or perhaps a question and then you'll be done with the discussion.
It's like "I'll just take my ball and go home." I feel like I'm left high and dry.
The most clearly that I have heard the voice of God was when I was begging for guidance relating to when to speak and when to not speak. He gave me a question, to which I try to adhere. "Is it beneficial?"

BTW, after posting my previous I had a good laugh when I realized that, had I known you were talking about eschatology, there would have been no conversation, as I avoid eschatology whenever possible.
 
The most clearly that I have heard the voice of God was when I was begging for guidance relating to when to speak and when to not speak. He gave me a question, to which I try to adhere. "Is it beneficial?"

BTW, after posting my previous I had a good laugh when I realized that, had I known you were talking about eschatology, there would have been no conversation, as I avoid eschatology whenever possible.
Maybe what we have then is a failure to communicate. I apologize as I'm sure I'm guilty of that. My wife reminds me all the time.

I don't really see eschatology coming from my end of the discussion. Just a reference to when the tares and wheat will be separated.
 
I will add that I'm not sure what the government has set up to be national Israel is what God's national Israel will be. Also that since the grafting in of us Gentiles to the Commonwealth of Israel that at some point we will join that restoration.

I most definitely don't have all the answers to this mystery of Israel and the Gentile grafting. All I can do is say that I read about it in Ezekiel and Romans 11. I don't know how it's all gonna play out. That doesn't mean it's not there in scripture.
I'm not willing to overlook those scriptures, and form a belief using other scriptures without also including those scriptures as well. And yes that is what I feel others have done to make Israel's restoration something that it's not. I'm not saying that it may be more than what it says it is in Ezekiel and Romans 11 but it will be what it is in those two passages as well.

In fact I know there's more because the whole world will eventually be restored.

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out

Oops, that my be eschatology after all. When I think about though, isn't the whole Bible?
 
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So, I will leap here, were people able to be born again before Christianity? What is our difference with those "circumcised in their heart, in the spirit"? who preceded Christianity? Any?
Sorry Gordy, I feel like you are being kicked to the side of your own thread.
First how do you see the Ezekiel passage as how it relates to Christians?
I do see parts of it that is exactly what God does to all Christians such as removing our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh. Giving us his Spirit and us observing His ordinances.
I would think those ordinances for us are the Great Commandment in the New Testament.

Please explain your question a bit more in the post above? Born again before Christianity? Preceding Christianity? Do you mean born again before Christ came? Preceding Christ's death on the cross?

Also, how are you tying this in to the Ezekiel passage of your first post?
 
I could lay out for you my "proof;)" that past is not real, future is not real, and present is not real, so time is not real; therefore there is no eschatology. Eternity, which is utterly present, or mere presence, is the only reality. But, it would not be beneficial.
 
Thread starter #47

gordon 2

Senior Member
Yes. I mean preceding Christ's death. And don't be sorry. I have come to expect that people don't derail treads, they are just being people.

Secretly I have about a full dozen of questions... I don't really know how to proceed. I guess I'm hoping that some of the discussion will sort of answer my questions before I ask them. In any case, I'd rather see good discussions even if off topic. So no worry. Just carry on being yourself. I expect that all are honest on this forum, except the odd visitors now and then. :)
 
Thread starter #48

gordon 2

Senior Member
I could lay out for you my "proof;)" that past is not real, future is not real, and present is not real, so time is not real; therefore there is no eschatology. Eternity, which is utterly present, is the only reality. But, it would not be beneficial.
I personally think this is very funny... for what my thinking might be of worth to someone else. :)
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
I admit, I'm not the best at explaining things. Read the Ezekiel passage and Romans 11 and tell me what it means. I'm sure I'll be able to understand what you mean. I may not agree with it but I'm pretty sure I'll be able to grasp the concept of your explanation.
How, when we do not even mean the same thing when we say "God"?
 
How, when we do not even mean the same thing when we say "God"?
My Father and your Father, my God and your God. The God of Jesus is the only God. I think we can agree that we both believe the Father of Jesus and the God of Jesus is our Father and our God.
Otherwise he would not have told us so.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
God called people the same way in the Old Covenant the same way He still does today. It is God who initiates, and then pursues us and then finishes His good work. If He did not quicken us with His Holy Spirit then we would never be saved. It is God providing all we need for our salvation from the start to finish.
 
Thinking about eternity and time, I've heard it mentioned that when we die we are taken out of time and we all meet at the end times at once.
Not that that does away with time but maybe a better explanation than soul sleep.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
I don't know about all that but we do know Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He is the One who comes and carries us over from life to Life!
 
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Israel

Senior Member
So, I will leap here, were people able to be born again before Christianity? What is our difference with those "circumcised in their heart, in the spirit"? who preceded Christianity? Any?
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when he testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Unless I read wrongly the writer is saying that those who testified (beforehand) of the sufferings of Christ, had within them the spirit of Christ.
 
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gemcgrew

Senior Member
My Father and your Father, my God and your God. The God of Jesus is the only God. I think we can agree that we both believe the Father of Jesus and the God of Jesus is our Father and our God.
Otherwise he would not have told us so.
There is no common ground between us. Your understanding and my understanding is not even similar.

The chasm is real.
 
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Israel

Senior Member
Unless I read wrongly the writer is saying that those who testified (beforehand) of the sufferings of Christ, had within them the spirit of Christ.
But also this:

The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things?…"


If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?…


A man needs to be stung. And teachers are...and will be.

Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?”

No doubt, no doubt at all...He'll find it being talked about.

Does this...apply to christians?
 
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Thread starter #59

gordon 2

Senior Member
Unless I read wrongly the writer is saying that those who testified (beforehand) of the sufferings of Christ, had within them the spirit of Christ.
I have read you and continue to... Could you venture as to who testified of the sufferings of Christ to the extent that sin would be taken away? Which prophet(s)?

What made Peter say in 1st Peter 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Where does Peter get this from in the Prophets? or is it his conception and drawing on the lambs and bloods of scripture and tradition as being salvific and atoning as a comparative to the ministry of our Lord in his death on the cross?
 
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Ha! Well, ain't you just something.

beware...a little leaven ....
I'm not teaching, as from that Galatian's passage, that the grafting in to Israel is a return to circumcision. On the contrary, Paul wrote both Galatians and Romans 11. I'm just asking one to read what Paul teaches in Romans 11.

It's more about the Jews becoming uncircumcised to get grafted back in, not the other way around.

Ephesians 2:11-13

One in Christ
11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Isaiah 14:1
For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and choose Israel once again. He will settle them on their own land. The foreigner will join them and be united with the house of Jacob.

We get to join "them" but first they must become spiritually uncircumcised by believing.
How does a Jew do that? Well the same way Gentiles do. Election by grace. In not grace then it's works.

It's the same election. It's from God. It's not based on any works of man. A remnant was chosen by grace.

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises.

Again the grafting in of Gentiles to join Israel is not a return to circumcision as was the parable of the little bit of leaven.
 
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