Does this apply to Christians?

Question, why was a Remnant chosen from Israel if God is no bigot? If chosen by grace like the rest of the world, why was it mentioned that a remnant was chosen in Romans like it was in the book of Kings?

I understand the grace part but why Israel? why Jews? My take on is for God's plan. Isn't that what Paul is teaching us if we read the whole chapter of Romans 11?
One can't just take a remnant being chosen by grace out of the context of how it was used in that chapter. Read before and after God chose the remnant. See what happens next. See the ending of the chapter.

Why did God choose national Israel? It must have been something to do with his plan. Was Israel randomly chosen out of all the nations? Was Mary randomly chosen out of all the nations?
 

Israel

Senior Member
Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I first think of Isaiah.
Surely inclusive...but not by any means limited to that portion which begins "Who hath believed our report..."
 
If it was never about national Israel. If they were only chosen for failure. If their only purpose was to bring us a Savior.

Then why do we read verses like this?

Isaiah 41:8
But you, O Israel, My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, descendant of Abraham My friend—

Isaiah 41:9
I brought you from the ends of the earth and called you from its farthest corners. I said, “You are My servant.” I have chosen and not rejected you.

Isaiah 44:1
But now listen, O Jacob My servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.
 
Thread starter #64

gordon 2

Senior Member
Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I first think of Isaiah.
Surely inclusive...but not by any means limited to that portion which begins "Who hath believed our report..."
Thank you.... I will study 53.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Isaiah 49:6

6 The Lord said to me,
“I have a greater task for you, my servant.
Not only will you restore to greatness
the people of Israel who have survived,
but I will also make you a light to the nations
so that all the world may be saved.”


This was God's plan for Israel, but they kept it internal and didn't allow it to go out. Therefore God grafted in the Gentiles Himself.
 
Isaiah 49:6

6 The Lord said to me,
“I have a greater task for you, my servant.
Not only will you restore to greatness
the people of Israel who have survived,
but I will also make you a light to the nations
so that all the world may be saved.”


This was God's plan for Israel, but they kept it internal and didn't allow it to go out. Therefore God grafted in the Gentiles Himself.
In what way did they keep it for themselves? Did Israel do something that made God have to change his plan?

I thought the verse above was about Jesus.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
How did the nation of Israel treat the Samaritans for instance. They were entrusted with the same thing we are now. They were supposed to subdue the earth, we are called to go into all the world. Same salvation language. That is why God destroyed them and grafted in the Gentiles to carry out His salvation plan. It should also serve as a warning should we decide to not act on it, just as Jonah did.
 

Israel

Senior Member
As often as I am reminded of Jesus' words regarding John the baptist their extremity is impressive.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Prophets and wise men all along the way (at least some) have left words in varying amounts, written down...yet this man (with no "Book of John" we might handle materially)...though not stated to be the greatest, comes behind none...and is at least the equal to the very most esteemed. "yet he that is least in the Kingdom of heaven...is greater..."


It might provoke a train of thought were a man to seek their significance. Not the least of which might be in the matter of esteems. And what...or who...might esteem himself least (or even be esteemed so), that is yet greater.

This matter of leasts, is it not also worthy of consideration? To whom would the Holy and Righteous Judge point (as only our God would know)?

"It's that one...Bruce Howard Leviton...(come over here for a minute Bruce so that all may see you) him here...he's the least in the Kingdom of Heaven (that's greater than John).

I know I speak as a fool might.

Just as a fool might answer when called upon in Sunday School..."who calls himself the chiefest of sinners?" And not give Paul as "correct" answer.
 
How did the nation of Israel treat the Samaritans for instance. They were entrusted with the same thing we are now. They were supposed to subdue the earth, we are called to go into all the world. Same salvation language. That is why God destroyed them and grafted in the Gentiles to carry out His salvation plan. It should also serve as a warning should we decide to not act on it, just as Jonah did.
Then you see an event or time period that changed God's chosen from Israel to something new that didn't exist before? From national Israel to spiritual Israel or the Church?
God's plan was for Israel to do something they didn't do. Such as subdue the earth and go into the world. Do you mean to spread the gospel and they didn't do this?
Therefore God had to graft in Gentiles himself because Israel wouldn't?

Help me see this with scripture. I did find this;

Ephesians 2:13-15
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.

I'm not sure if this is in relation to the Jews not letting the Gentiles in or not but their was definitely as dividing wall. I somehow thought God put it their and not the Jews.
 
Interesting concept on the Jewish Gentile division or separation. That the Jews created it and not God.
Things or events in time happening that united the division. Two becoming one. There was definitely a division at one time.
Christ coming to do away with the division.

Ephesians 2:11-13
Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

The origins of this division?
 
I'm trying to picture how things went down after Christ ascended. Paul says there was a division and that Jesus ended it. The division was over and he was tasked with preaching this revelation.
Now as far as salvation was concerned, there was no more Jew or Gentile.
Prophesy comes forth in time;

Isaiah 14:1
For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and choose Israel once again. He will settle them on their own land. The foreigner will join them and be united with the house of Jacob.

The foreigner can now join them through the grafting in as explained by Paul, the Gentile inclusion.

How things went down in Israel mainly. How the Jews felt having to share their God. The Christian Jews. Still confused having to go from the Law to Grace. From Judiasm to Christianity.

It probably wasn't a smooth changeover. Those Jews still thought that Gentiles would have to be circumcised. Thus all the verses on this.
Paul and Peter were explaining that Gentiles were receiving the Holy Spirit without circumcision.

What about John 10:16? Does it show an end to the division?

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
 
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I think these verses may be related;

Isaiah 14:1
For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and choose Israel once again. He will settle them on their own land. The foreigner will join them and be united with the house of Jacob.

Isaiah 56:8
Thus declares the Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel: “I will gather to them still others besides those already gathered.”

The foreigners will join them. Will gather others to those he has already gathered. Gentiles joining Jews? The Grafting in of Gentiles to the Commonwealth of Israel as explained by Paul?

Foreigners joining the gathered scattered?
 
The arrogance of the new believers. First the Jews who maybe had a hard time sharing their God with Gentiles. Then Gentiles who may have been arrogant towards the Jews for not accepting Jesus as the Messiah.

I see things like this in life today. We say there is no division and we believe in Unity but we don't really. Jews, Gentiles, male, female, Republicans, Democrats, Blacks, Whites.
We just can't give up the divisions.

Look at God, even with unity there is still division. Look at the Church, even with unity we still have denominations. I'm not even saying divisions within unity is a bad thing, just that it exist.
I didn't choose Israel, God did. That therefore started a division.

Back to the arrogance;
“You will say then, ‘Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.’ Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.” (Romans 11:19–21)

I still see a bit of this arrogance concerning what Paul is explaining.
Pride, arrogance, boasting. No humility.

“And if they [the Jewish People] do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” (Romans 11:23)

Wait, is Paul saying one can be grafted back in again? A Jew? What is it with Paul's talk of Jews and Gentiles? What happen to the unity? Why is Paul dividing?

Why is Paul dividing if Jesus ended the division on the Cross? Is it division within unity? Is that the meaning of Romans 11?
 
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God chose Israel. The beginning of the division. God sent his Son to die on the Cross, born a Jew. The end of the division. God ushers in unity.

Gentiles without hope or God, strangers to the promises of Israel grafted in by the power of the Blood of Jesus. The Unity of two becoming one.
God chose Israel but now Gentiles can be grafted in.

Many pieces of the mystery missing in my mind. All this division within unity is hard to fathom. It would have been so much easier on me if God had never chosen a nation. Why did Jesus have to be born a Jew? Why did the promises have to be made to Abraham?
The concept of God choosing a nation and then later allowing all nations to become a part of "that" nation is a strange plan to me.
The need of the genealogy, loved on account of the patriarchs, the Son of David, the people of Israel, The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.


I can see why some believe it never was the way Isaiah and Paul say it was. Yet it is what it is. It's not my plan. I can't say it isn't fair.
Why, because Romans 11 says, I don't know the mind of God.

“Who has given so much to God, that God should repay him?”
 
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Israel

Senior Member
Christ is not divided.
Christ is...what is.
A man can no more be "in Christ" bearing "his own" identity than an airplane can be rightly known as a "silver bird". Or a locomotive is an "iron horse". There are identities the world can recognize and accept. And receive. Descriptions. DE-scriptions.

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.

A man may find great relief when he is relieved of "having to make sense to himself".
His sense...is, as all in Christ...a given thing.

A talking donkey is less than no problem here, for he himself knows he is no more than talking mud. And all his great strivings, great efforts to present himself, and appear as more, impress as more...BE...as more...are hilariously revealed as source of every grief he has invited to himself...and through himself...upon the world.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

To see Christ...is to see what God can do with mud. What mud would prefer to not think of itself as...must be reduced to knowing what it is, before may come the revelation of what it yet may be.

We hold this treasure in earthen vessels...


God is very fond of mud, does not despise it, at all. After all, He alone is the maker of it.


And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
God sees what is small. Smaller...smallest. What man has chosen to overlook...is all that has God's full attentions.
 
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Thread starter #76

gordon 2

Senior Member
I'm trying to picture how things went down after Christ ascended. Paul says there was a division and that Jesus ended it. The division was over and he was tasked with preaching this revelation.
Now as far as salvation was concerned, there was no more Jew or Gentile.
Prophesy comes forth in time;

Isaiah 14:1
For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and choose Israel once again. He will settle them on their own land. The foreigner will join them and be united with the house of Jacob.

The foreigner can now join them through the grafting in as explained by Paul, the Gentile inclusion.

How thing went down in Israel mainly. How the Jews felt having to share their God. The Christian Jews. Still confused having to go from the Law to Grace. From Judiasm to Christianity.

It probably wasn't a smooth changeover. Those Jews still thought that Gentiles would have to be circumcised. Thus all the verses on this.
Paul and Peter were explaining that Gentiles were receiving the Holy Spirit without circumcision.

What about John 10:16? Does it show an end to the division?

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Genesis 3:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

As to a divided existence or division, somehow I think the enmity here was removed or the state of affairs was restored to at least seeing the place just before the cause of this enmity due to the ministry of the Jesus and the emphasis on love, especially loving one's enemy:


But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same?…

So John the Baptist was perhaps less than one least in the Kingdom because he knew not to love his enemies outside of those called Israel. ( This is just supposition Art.) As his countryman or as many in his nation he was guarded regards his religion and faith and for which he regarded justified by the history and ordonances of the Jewish cult... John might not have seen his way to calling a Samaritan, no matter what the Samaritan did, good yet.

On the other hand, in no time Christians, who were newly occupying the Kingdom, realized in practice that the divide of us and them was impossible morally now--- that there were no longer Jews and Gentiles... in their new spiritual cosmos... etc...that this divide was abolished in Christ--the messiah.

In Christ the enmity between Jew and Gentile was stopped and a wholesome assessment of the gods of the world vs the one True God was available to all from within the new self brought about by Christ. The perception that one needed his guard up and the need to live with fanatical spiritual, national and racial and sexist xenophobia was gone.
 
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"love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"

May this is what Spineyman was saying in #65 & 67. The Jews didn't love the neighboring Gentile nations. They didn't spread the Gospel.

Given the Gentile nations didn't love Israel either but they didn't have the Good News. They didn't have the covenant. It was Israel that had the things that needed sharing.

So was it Israel's responsibility? Did they have the command from God to share the Old Testament Covenant?
It sounds like Spineyman says they did. That this is what they didn't share. Now I can see it maybe if it was after Jesus came and ascended.
That they were to spread the Gospel and didn't but not the Old Covenant.

I'm just not sure Israel was tasked with spreading anything. I think the Isaiah verses about all the nations receiving blessings from Israel was Jesus.
Jesus was the blessing from Israel. I think it was Paul who had the revelation about the mystery/secret of the gospel of grace going out to the Gentile nations.
 
How did the nation of Israel treat the Samaritans for instance. They were entrusted with the same thing we are now. They were supposed to subdue the earth, we are called to go into all the world. Same salvation language. That is why God destroyed them and grafted in the Gentiles to carry out His salvation plan. It should also serve as a warning should we decide to not act on it, just as Jonah did.
Still trying to work this out in my mind. God chose a remnant out of Israel and then hardened the rest of Israel. Until the full number of Gentiles comese in.
I'm trying to see what you are saying and tie it in to Romans 11. I guess when you said God destroyed them, that was the hardening. Then since they didn't call for the Gentiles to join them, God grafted them in himself.

OK, what next as in Romans 11? Will the Natural branches be allowed to be grafted "back" in? Will their eyes be opened at some point in the future? Maybe after the full number of Gentiles comes in.
 
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