Dr. Assisted Suicide

[WaltL1]

If that kid is in Christ, I wouldn't have to tell them, he/she already knows.
It's those who are not in Christ who have trouble understanding it. They can't see "afar off".

This is what I find disgusting about religion.
Turn a kid's suffering into a sales pitch.
Just disgusting.

 

[Spotlite]

This is what I find disgusting about religion.
Turn a kid's suffering into a sales pitch.
Just disgusting.

If someone is using someone’s health situation as a sales pitch either for or against religion, I’d agree with you.

How many have turned away from religion due to their “unanswered prayers” and the sales pitch of “told you, God isn’t real”?

“Indoctrination” works both ways. You can influence and raise an atheist or Christian child.

Perhaps we all share in the “disgust”

But what do you as a non believer say to a kid on his cancer bed that ask you to pray for him?? What do you say if he ask you about God?

 

[Israel]

A thing, even if not being declared a right, does not by necessity make it illegal.

A thing, by being declared a right, not only makes it legal, but protected with force of law. And the protection of such is always limited by such power as may be granted in exertion, to the authority declaring.

And a commandment has always and only the power of its issuing authority to its enforcement. Likewise, if there be a forbidding.

 

[Israel]

Easy to say when you are in good health.

Sunny days are meant for building.
And storms test what each has built.

 

[WaltL1]

If someone is using someone’s health situation as a sales pitch either for or against religion, I’d agree with you.

How many have turned away from religion due to their “unanswered prayers” and the sales pitch of “told you, God isn’t real”?

“Indoctrination” works both ways. You can influence and raise an atheist or Christian child.

Perhaps we all share in the “disgust”

But what do you as a non believer say to a kid on his cancer bed that ask you to pray for him?? What do you say if he ask you about God?

If someone is using someone’s health situation as a sales pitch either for or against religion, I’d agree with you.

And I would agree with you.

How many have turned away from religion due to their “unanswered prayers” and the sales pitch of “told you, God isn’t real”?

I honestly don't know a single person who turned away from religion for either of those 2 reasons. I would assume there are I just don't know or have talked to one.

“Indoctrination” works both ways. You can influence and raise an atheist or Christian child.

There is a 3rd option.

But what do you as a non believer say to a kid on his cancer bed that ask you to pray for him??

Couple of options -
1. Ask him to lead the prayer while I bow my head and be respectful.
2. Tell him I will "pray" for him. The Christian assumption is one can only "pray" to God. You can pray for a positive outcome without asking a deity to grant your wish.

What do you say if he ask you about God?

Couple of options -
1. I know enough about the Christian beliefs in God to be able to tell him.
2. Tell him a pastor/priest/whatever can explain better than I can and then go get the appropriate pastor/priest/whatever.

Its pretty simple to turn the conservation around to what they believe without having to reveal what you believe.
I get the feeling you think it would go like this -
Suffering kid: "Walt tell me about God".
Walt: "Don't be stupid there is no God".

 

[Israel]

Who of us...do not find ourselves...at very particular times..."that kid"?

 

[bullethead]

Sunny days are meant for building.
And storms test what each has built.

Children are too young and inexperienced to understand that. Most adults are too absorbed in other things to care.

 

[Spotlite]

And I would agree with you.

I honestly don't know a single person who turned away from religion for either of those 2 reasons. I would assume there are I just don't know or have talked to one.

There is a 3rd option.

Couple of options -
1. Ask him to lead the prayer while I bow my head and be respectful.
2. Tell him I will "pray" for him. The Christian assumption is one can only "pray" to God. You can pray for a positive outcome without asking a deity to grant your wish.

Couple of options -
1. I know enough about the Christian beliefs in God to be able to tell him.
2. Tell him a pastor/priest/whatever can explain better than I can and then go get the appropriate pastor/priest/whatever.

Its pretty simple to turn the conservation around to what they believe without having to reveal what you believe.
I get the feeling you think it would go like this -
Suffering kid: "Walt tell me about God".
Walt: "Don't be stupid there is no God".

I like it!

But no I don’t think that you’d do that to anyone, let alone a kid, my intent was to expand on what welderguy said about “if the child is in Christ, he will understand”.......meaning that it’s not a sales pitch since the conversation will be based on what the kid already believes.

 

[Israel]

Children are too young and inexperienced to understand that. Most adults are too absorbed in other things to care.

I don't disagree.

Is that not a suffering right there?
I read, heard, saw...somewhere and somehow in some way came across this statement...I can't remember the quote exactly or from whom, a long while back in regards to what suffering is:

"Suffering is not a single thing, it is composed of both pain and the perception (i.e. interpretation) of it"

(And aha! When I sought to google that statement just now, a whole host of things came up)

I have thought much about that statement over the years...and I believe it approaches an understanding of certain things that, on their face, might be consigned a more facile interpretation.

 

[Israel]

This "useful" child being discussed as though he were all measure of true suffering in the perfect degree of innocence, of all unwarranted and terrible circumstance of affliction (and infliction, if any can bear it)...where does he "stack up" against the woman on Rodeo Drive in 500$ mules who suddenly finds a nail breaking in seeking to lift an overladen shopping bag and screams in utter desperation to the heavens "why me?"
Is she not..."as useful"? And if so...to what?

If we are "only" judges between, observers outside (as though we inhabit an outside...O! the vanity!) the lending of sympathies to one, and the likewise (perhaps) rebuke of the other...doesn't really do anything for either, ultimately.
If all, at best, we believe is in only seeing and shaking our "knowing heads" to "what a pity...what a shame" to either...or both...(as though we truly do act only as observer "of mankind"...exempting ourselves) and do not...and cannot (how blind is man?) know ourselves as both to no difference at all...we are indeed, most deceived.

I tell you, there is One who has come to sit in the dust of both, and with them, not so they may know shame of their condition...but hope in Him, through His willingness to be found in their (our) common dust. And to sit with us...in it. (And even stay...if one can receive it!)

For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you again.

Do any of us think innocence is not judged to a right end?
And who among us...is? Innocent enough to declare "I will bear all judgment for my judging"

For whether we say it or not...we shall.

 

[bullethead]

This "useful" child being discussed as though he were all measure of true suffering in the perfect degree of innocence, of all unwarranted and terrible circumstance of affliction (and infliction, if any can bear it)...where does he "stack up" against the woman on Rodeo Drive in 500$ mules who suddenly finds a nail breaking in seeking to lift an overladen shopping bag and screams in utter desperation to the heavens "why me?"
Is she not..."as useful"? And if so...to what?

If we are "only" judges between, observers outside (as though we inhabit an outside...O! the vanity!) the lending of sympathies to one, and the likewise (perhaps) rebuke of the other...doesn't really do anything for either, ultimately.
If all, at best, we believe is in only seeing and shaking our "knowing heads" to "what a pity...what a shame" to either...or both...(as though we truly do act only as observer "of mankind"...exempting ourselves) and do not...and cannot (how blind is man?) know ourselves as both to no difference at all...we are indeed, most deceived.

I tell you, there is One who has come to sit in the dust of both, and with them, not so they may know shame of their condition...but hope in Him, through His willingness to be found in their (our) common dust. And to sit with us...in it. (And even stay...if one can receive it!)

For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you again.

Do any of us think innocence is not judged to a right end?
And who among us...is? Innocent enough to declare "I will bear all judgment for my judging"

For whether we say it or not...we shall.

There are many among us who feel that we are judged now by others and act accordingly instead of believing that there is a magic belief based etch-O-sketch who will shake it all away later simply for being brand loyal.
Indivuduals act as their own One.

“If thou shouldst live three thousand years, or as many myriads, yet remember this, that no man loses any other life than that he now lives; and that he now lives no other life than what he is parting with, every instant. The longest life, and the shortest, come to one effect: since the present time is equal to all, what is lost or parted with is equal to all. And for the same reason, what is parted with, is only a moment. No man at death parts with, or, is deprived of, what is either past or future. For how can one take from a man what he hath not? We should also remember these things, first, That all things which have happened in the continued revolutions from eternity, are of the same kind with what we behold: And ’tis of little consequence, whether a man beholds the same things for an hundred years, or an infinite duration. Again that the longest and the shortest lives have an equal loss at Death. The present moment is all which either is deprived of, since that is all he has. A man cannot part with what he has not. “ – Meditations, Marcus Aurelius

 

[Israel]

There are many among us who feel that we are judged now by others and act accordingly instead of believing that there is a magic belief based etch-O-sketch who will shake it all away later simply for being brand loyal.
Indivuduals act as their own One.

I think you think I propose "brand loyalty" is an exemption to this?
Hardly.

And no, not at all.

The one calling himself "of Christ" has either learned (to some extent) or shortly will in great extent...that he is no more exempt from this, indulged in this, or in any way regarded superior to another by simply "knowing this".

Jesus tells all who hear "this". And making claim of being a disciple is in no way to special exception. (it actually works quite contrary, in truth). A disciple should in every way...expect the harsher judgement in his claims.
The whole of "He who knew His Master's will but did it not..."

Yes...some, if not many of you (even of us) know there's a particular enticement toward jumping up and down and saying "I know God, I know God!" (After all...how far is that from saying "I know EVERYTHING!"?)

But Jesus cautions about saying one knows a thing...but not then...being in accord with it. The dealings with that one...are harsher.

But such is not meant to a destruction...but to an enlightenment, a reception of light...that shows "knowing" a thing...is not always the same as "knowing a thing".

Yes, it's a strict discipline...but the alternative...is no light...and a bewildering and bewailing of why's...when all the hows are made plainly in sight to anyone...when what is suddenly made unbearably plain...Jesus has come for the blind.

 

[bullethead]

I think you think I propose "brand loyalty" is an exemption to this?
Hardly.

And no, not at all.

The one calling himself "of Christ" has either learned (to some extent) or shortly will in great extent...that he is no more exempt from this, indulged in this, or in any way regarded superior to another by simply "knowing this".

Jesus tells all who hear "this". And making claim of being a disciple is in no way to special exception. (it actually works quite contrary, in truth). A disciple should in every way...expect the harsher judgement in his claims.
The whole of "He who knew His Master's will but did it not..."

Yes...some, if not many of you (even of us) know there's a particular enticement toward jumping up and down and saying "I know God, I know God!" (After all...how far is that from saying "I know EVERYTHING!"?)

But Jesus cautions about saying one knows a thing...but not then...being in accord with it. The dealings with that one...are harsher.

But such is not meant to a destruction...but to an enlightenment, a reception of light...that shows "knowing" a thing...is not always the same as "knowing a thing".

Yes, it's a strict discipline...but the alternative...is no light...and a bewildering and bewailing of why's...when all the hows are made plainly in sight to anyone...when what is suddenly made unbearable and plain...Jesus has come for the blind.

I don't know what this Jesus thinks, I cant speak for this Jesus, I do not even pretend to know this Jesus. I cannot believe or even take seriously anyone who constantly talks and acts as if they do.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

After reading the comments it seems like with a lot of them, folks are starting to fish with bare hooks.

It seems to me that regardless of whatever context one is attempting to define it in, constitutional vs unconstitutional, state vs federal oversight, religious vs athiestic implications, one needs to keep in mind the purpose of it; to alleviate a terminally ill persons suffering. Don’t lose sight of that......that there’s someone, a real, live, person, with loved ones gathered around them, going through very often excruciating agony with every breath left in them. Don’t lose that.

I’ve placed people on morphine drips, many people, and since cancer runs in my family I’ve sat at the bedside of my father and aunts and hit that button on the morphie pump every time it would let me to speed their passing.

As a Christian I have no conviction about it at all. If you need to know why I will be glad to discuss it.

 

[welderguy]

After reading the comments it seems like with a lot of them, folks are starting to fish with bare hooks.

It seems to me that regardless of whatever context one is attempting to define it in, constitutional vs unconstitutional, state vs federal oversight, religious vs athiestic implications, one needs to keep in mind the purpose of it; to alleviate a terminally ill persons suffering. Don’t lose sight of that......that there’s someone, a real, live, person, with loved ones gathered around them, going through very often excruciating agony with every breath left in them. Don’t lose that.

I’ve placed people on morphine drips, many people, and since cancer runs in my family I’ve sat at the bedside of my father and aunts and hit that button on the morphie pump every time it would let me to speed their passing.

As a Christian I have no conviction about it at all. If you need to know why I will be glad to discuss it.

Suppose the morphine pump had no limiter on it. Could you still in your good conscience, keep pushing the button?

 

[Israel]

To "how much" of Jesus does a man then accept? Is it the seeming "constantly" only that is the rub? If someone keeps it (whatever of what may be said of "this Jesus)...to some form of "under wraps", do they now become...believable?

I cannot help but wonder, in that calculus, who is found liar? Is it the one (surely not me) that speaks only and always "of Christ" having that form of faith that leads him to accept Jesus is the all He says of Himself (and not without testimony)...or is it the one who..."saying" they believe Jesus is Lord...and Savior (the all...in all) finds ample place in whatever form communication takes...to find so much "other" of equal, or greater worth, in pursuit?

I have a suspicion that were you to meet a man who said "Hey, I love hand loading too" and you pursued the conversation (I have no reason to doubt your friendliness) and he said "yeah, back in 1982 I once sat at a friend's table while he loaded a box of .308's"

Would you judge him...somehow? Not necessarily as liar, not even necessarily as fraud...but that maybe his expression of an affection for a thing, and your own...experience of it may be quite different.


I don't doubt you a bit, find you quite believable in fact, with the things you say. And I do not presume that your "not knowing Jesus" is in any way an anti-affection. Nor do I even presume you love (to any extent) Marcus Aurelius. He may just be a handy thing to you...for rebuttal. A tool. And his quote, or even a continual quoting of him...even if presumed to be an affection...might not be at all. Pages and reams of Marcus Aurelius need not convince me...you have any affection for him, at all.

And you are right. If tomorrow my first post started with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..." and every word thereafter followed in transcription...I know this could not begin to prove a thing...of affection....except someone was taking the time to transcribe.

I also know men cannot enter into a quid pro quo for the truth. My believing you, and your saying...has absolutely no (and any implication to the opposite as in "I believe you, you should then and therefore...believe me") bearing, and not only shows an ignorance...but a manifest denial of what truth...is.


So yes, I believe you wholeheartedly as I may:

I don't know what this Jesus thinks, I cant speak for this Jesus, I do not even pretend to know this Jesus.

 

[atlashunter]

Yup.........and just think about this for a second, how does one accuse Christianity as “immoral” and justify murder????? Suicide by assistance is nothing but murder.

Is it? If I give you a gun knowing that you’re going to pull the trigger on yourself am I guilty of murder? Is that the same as doing it myself and taking your life against your will? Murder is defined as the unlawful taking of a human life. And the law is what we make it.

 

[bullethead]

To "how much" of Jesus does a man then accept? Is it the seeming "constantly" only that is the rub? If someone keeps it (whatever of what may be said of "this Jesus)...to some form of "under wraps", do they now become...believable?

I cannot help but wonder, in that calculus, who is found liar? Is it the one (surely not me) that speaks only and always "of Christ" having that form of faith that leads him to accept Jesus is the all He says of Himself (and not without testimony)...or is it the one who..."saying" they believe Jesus is Lord...and Savior (the all...in all) finds ample place in whatever form communication takes...to find so much "other" of equal, or greater worth, in pursuit?

I have a suspicion that were you to meet a man who said "Hey, I love hand loading too" and you pursued the conversation (I have no reason to doubt your friendliness) and he said "yeah, back in 1982 I once sat at a friend's table while he loaded a box of .308's"

Would you judge him...somehow? Not necessarily as liar, not even necessarily as fraud...but that maybe his expression of an affection for a thing, and your own...experience of it may be quite different.


I don't doubt you a bit, find you quite believable in fact, with the things you say. And I do not presume that your "not knowing Jesus" is in any way an anti-affection. Nor do I even presume you love (to any extent) Marcus Aurelius. He may just be a handy thing to you...for rebuttal. A tool. And his quote, or even a continual quoting of him...even if presumed to be an affection...might not be at all. Pages and reams of Marcus Aurelius need not convince me...you have any affection for him, at all.

And you are right. If tomorrow my first post started with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..." and every word thereafter followed in transcription...I know this could not begin to prove a thing...of affection....except someone was taking the time to transcribe.

I also know men cannot enter into a quid pro quo for the truth. My believing you, and your saying...has absolutely no (and any implication to the opposite as in "I believe you, you should then and therefore...believe me") bearing, and not only shows an ignorance...but a manifest denial of what truth...is.


So yes, I believe you wholeheartedly as I may:

Do you think I would believe, or more importantly would you expect me to believe a fellow reloader that told me he gets his recipes from a handloader who lived almost 2000 years ago and from a log book which that ancient handloader never actually wrote a recipe in?

I wouldn't fill my cases with a recipe from my experienced best friend just because he said so. I would start lower, work my way up, check for velocity and pressure along the way and stop when verified results tell me that the recipe I was given is safe IE: truthful. And even then, if it is not accurate in my gun, it is useless to me.

Knowing all that, can you tell me Why I should take the word of someone who doesn't even "reload" but pretends to while mixing unproven components from an ancient load book full of unverifiable loads along the way solely because that is the only way they think it can be done?

 

[atlashunter]

I think suffering gets a bad rap most of the time, unnecessarily.
Much of our suffering is very good for us. Paradoxical

Corinthians 4:17

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

 

[atlashunter]

There are many among us who feel that we are judged now by others and act accordingly instead of believing that there is a magic belief based etch-O-sketch who will shake it all away later simply for being brand loyal.
Indivuduals act as their own One.

“If thou shouldst live three thousand years, or as many myriads, yet remember this, that no man loses any other life than that he now lives; and that he now lives no other life than what he is parting with, every instant. The longest life, and the shortest, come to one effect: since the present time is equal to all, what is lost or parted with is equal to all. And for the same reason, what is parted with, is only a moment. No man at death parts with, or, is deprived of, what is either past or future. For how can one take from a man what he hath not? We should also remember these things, first, That all things which have happened in the continued revolutions from eternity, are of the same kind with what we behold: And ’tis of little consequence, whether a man beholds the same things for an hundred years, or an infinite duration. Again that the longest and the shortest lives have an equal loss at Death. The present moment is all which either is deprived of, since that is all he has. A man cannot part with what he has not. “ – Meditations, Marcus Aurelius

I find much more wisdom in the stoics than in Christianity. Constantine was a real step backwards for western civilization.