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Feed Comparison Results
- Thread starter davidhelmly
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EastALHunter
Senior Member
While it's a good starting point...
What most people don't understand is that there are a number of variables on standard laboratory feed tests like those that are calculated using factors that are not necessarily 100% applicable. Also, there are things that cannot be truly tested (not calculated using factors) like digestible energy and by-pass protein that have to be tested using surgical procedures that cost tens of thousands of dollars. You can go to a feed chart and look at them and those are surgically derived numbers. I formulate off of them and use them as a resource to maximize certain aspects of the feed that get results in the field. None can be tested without costly surgical procedures.
Feed tests like those David ran are a great starting point at least to look at basic things like "is my feed hitting protein and fat targets". Very important things to look at. One caution - fiber targets are almost always maximum levels so they should be less than the targets on the tag. Protein and fat are minimum levels and should be dead on or (preferably) higher.
That's the paradox with feed testing - you can't affordably test for the most important variables that impact antler growth. My common sense advice is if who you are buying from cannot explain nutrition and antler growth in easy to understand discussion, you might want to think about it and do some additional research. I was one of if not the first person in the industry to mention by-pass protein on my website and within a few years it showed up on many deer feed websites. I've had multiple new customers call that said when they contacted those other websites they couldn't explain by-pass protein at all. Just be careful.
One other miss-represented issue out there is whole cottonseed and cottonseed meal in regards to gossypol toxicity. It's like comparing water before and after going through a treatment plant. There is no comparison. Once cottonseed is processed, the meal left over is a tremendous feed ingredient that is used in animal feeds by the tens of thousands of tons every day in the U.S. and there is microscopic levels of gossypol left. Just like there is microscopic levels of arsenic and other chemicals in the water we drink. There is also not one research document that points toward a problem with cottonseed meal in animals. There would be no beef cattle reproduction if there was - how silly does that sound. Yes, there are research articles on whole full oil cottonseed regarding gossypol - however, the research is actually split as to whether it is problematic - the dadgum researchers can't even get a consistent conclusion. But one thing is for sure - cottonseed MEAL is a safe, highly used feed ingredient just like your drinking water is safe even if it's processed like cottonseed meal to make it safe. I don't think anyone would like to drink out of the input tank at the water treatment plant but nobody is boycotting treated water either. Common sense.
But I do have customers that don't want it irregardless and that's not a problem. We formulate both ways and the price is pretty similar. They give up performance in antler growth but most things in life are 80% mental. And the customer needs to be happy. Flexibility is the key to meet every customers wants/needs.
What most people don't understand is that there are a number of variables on standard laboratory feed tests like those that are calculated using factors that are not necessarily 100% applicable. Also, there are things that cannot be truly tested (not calculated using factors) like digestible energy and by-pass protein that have to be tested using surgical procedures that cost tens of thousands of dollars. You can go to a feed chart and look at them and those are surgically derived numbers. I formulate off of them and use them as a resource to maximize certain aspects of the feed that get results in the field. None can be tested without costly surgical procedures.
Feed tests like those David ran are a great starting point at least to look at basic things like "is my feed hitting protein and fat targets". Very important things to look at. One caution - fiber targets are almost always maximum levels so they should be less than the targets on the tag. Protein and fat are minimum levels and should be dead on or (preferably) higher.
That's the paradox with feed testing - you can't affordably test for the most important variables that impact antler growth. My common sense advice is if who you are buying from cannot explain nutrition and antler growth in easy to understand discussion, you might want to think about it and do some additional research. I was one of if not the first person in the industry to mention by-pass protein on my website and within a few years it showed up on many deer feed websites. I've had multiple new customers call that said when they contacted those other websites they couldn't explain by-pass protein at all. Just be careful.
One other miss-represented issue out there is whole cottonseed and cottonseed meal in regards to gossypol toxicity. It's like comparing water before and after going through a treatment plant. There is no comparison. Once cottonseed is processed, the meal left over is a tremendous feed ingredient that is used in animal feeds by the tens of thousands of tons every day in the U.S. and there is microscopic levels of gossypol left. Just like there is microscopic levels of arsenic and other chemicals in the water we drink. There is also not one research document that points toward a problem with cottonseed meal in animals. There would be no beef cattle reproduction if there was - how silly does that sound. Yes, there are research articles on whole full oil cottonseed regarding gossypol - however, the research is actually split as to whether it is problematic - the dadgum researchers can't even get a consistent conclusion. But one thing is for sure - cottonseed MEAL is a safe, highly used feed ingredient just like your drinking water is safe even if it's processed like cottonseed meal to make it safe. I don't think anyone would like to drink out of the input tank at the water treatment plant but nobody is boycotting treated water either. Common sense.
But I do have customers that don't want it irregardless and that's not a problem. We formulate both ways and the price is pretty similar. They give up performance in antler growth but most things in life are 80% mental. And the customer needs to be happy. Flexibility is the key to meet every customers wants/needs.
meadowsedge
Member
We would like to thank David Helmly for doing this test! It is great data. Were very pleased with numbers on our feed.
I encourage hunters and deer managers to read Texas A&M's study on gossypol. http://www.cottonseed.com/publicati...M_COTTONSEED_CAN_STUNT_DEER_ANTLER_GROWTH.pdf
I encourage hunters and deer managers to read Texas A&M's study on gossypol. http://www.cottonseed.com/publicati...M_COTTONSEED_CAN_STUNT_DEER_ANTLER_GROWTH.pdf
jimboknows
Senior Member
thanks David...nice to know the stuff I have been using tests well.
shdw633
Senior Member
There is so much out there that muddies up the water regarding deer feed it is unbelievable anymore. Here is an article that touts the benefits of feeding deer cottonseed that they tested on whitetail deer, not red deer or fallow deer back in 2009 and it was whole cottonseed not cotton seed meal.
http://www.buckmanager.com/2009/02/24/feeding-cottonseed-as-supplemental-white-tailed-deer-food/
EastALHunter
Senior Member
The main problem (again) with that study...
Is that it is done with WHOLE cottonseed. The study inaccurately links it directly to cottonseed meal which is a whole other animal. There are numerous other problems with that "study" both statistically and setup wise that my graduate school prof would have blistered me on. This report is a clear representation of the lack of deer research we have in this country that I alluded to in an earlier post.
Is that it is done with WHOLE cottonseed. The study inaccurately links it directly to cottonseed meal which is a whole other animal. There are numerous other problems with that "study" both statistically and setup wise that my graduate school prof would have blistered me on. This report is a clear representation of the lack of deer research we have in this country that I alluded to in an earlier post.
EastALHunter
Senior Member
Thanks for posting...
I have yet to find one study (poor or good) that has one negative finding about cottonseed meal use in animals.
I have yet to find one study (poor or good) that has one negative finding about cottonseed meal use in animals.
You get big antlers on a high energy diet
I have alot of info for you all ,I have raise whitetails for 17 years . I have been helping alot of hunters on feeding there free range deer for three years now. I know how to get a buck big behind a fence and free range bucks as well. I have 5 test pens of bucks that I feed different feed formual to. This is going to blow your mine ,my biggest antlers on any genetic buck deer was fed 10% fat. For free range deer you want to feed a high protein and high fat .Your fiber is will high what they eat in the woods and fields. There is a will good chance the free range deer is eating 15 to 20 % fiber . So if you only feed 4 to 6 % fat your high fiber numbers will bring your fat and protein levels down big time. For the free range deer I like 20 % or more,and fat around 14 %. The guys that been feeding ther deer with this formula are getting big. After this antler growing season I will know more ,the reason is we have help alot of outfitters that is feeding free range elk,mule deer, and whitetails deer. A simple free range feed ration is 50% corn and 50 % roasted soy bean with 40 # of soy bean oil to a ton. That will put you around 20 + protein and 14 % fat. If you are feeding a high protean pellet add 40 # of soy oil . That will bring your fat level up where you need to be. . Another key is add a good Micro-Encapsulated Probiotic with enzymes and amino acids,10# to a ton.I have more info.Hope this help you ,I am new to this site, want to help if I can.
I have alot of info for you all ,I have raise whitetails for 17 years . I have been helping alot of hunters on feeding there free range deer for three years now. I know how to get a buck big behind a fence and free range bucks as well. I have 5 test pens of bucks that I feed different feed formual to. This is going to blow your mine ,my biggest antlers on any genetic buck deer was fed 10% fat. For free range deer you want to feed a high protein and high fat .Your fiber is will high what they eat in the woods and fields. There is a will good chance the free range deer is eating 15 to 20 % fiber . So if you only feed 4 to 6 % fat your high fiber numbers will bring your fat and protein levels down big time. For the free range deer I like 20 % or more,and fat around 14 %. The guys that been feeding ther deer with this formula are getting big. After this antler growing season I will know more ,the reason is we have help alot of outfitters that is feeding free range elk,mule deer, and whitetails deer. A simple free range feed ration is 50% corn and 50 % roasted soy bean with 40 # of soy bean oil to a ton. That will put you around 20 + protein and 14 % fat. If you are feeding a high protean pellet add 40 # of soy oil . That will bring your fat level up where you need to be. . Another key is add a good Micro-Encapsulated Probiotic with enzymes and amino acids,10# to a ton.I have more info.Hope this help you ,I am new to this site, want to help if I can.
meadowsedge
Member
Meadows Edge does not promote any cottonseed products in our rations of deer feed, based on facts about cottonseed and cottonseed meal.
Meadows Edge's farm consist of cotton, corn, peanuts and soybeans. Based on the fact that cotton is sprayed very heavily with chemicals, and previous studies from multiple universities, we choose not to include it in our products. Last spring while combining a 50 acre wheat field, next to Di-Lane Wildlife Management Area, we observed over 40 fawn deaths in the wheat field. After reporting this to Georgia DNR they advised us that it was most likely due to the deer eating the cotton crop next to the wheat, where the deer had eaten 80 acres of cotton to the ground. They said this was due to the increased levels of gossypol they received from the cotton. If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to send us a PM.
Meadows Edge's farm consist of cotton, corn, peanuts and soybeans. Based on the fact that cotton is sprayed very heavily with chemicals, and previous studies from multiple universities, we choose not to include it in our products. Last spring while combining a 50 acre wheat field, next to Di-Lane Wildlife Management Area, we observed over 40 fawn deaths in the wheat field. After reporting this to Georgia DNR they advised us that it was most likely due to the deer eating the cotton crop next to the wheat, where the deer had eaten 80 acres of cotton to the ground. They said this was due to the increased levels of gossypol they received from the cotton. If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to send us a PM.
Pro Hunter 1971
Member
There is MORE Good information here than anything that I have read in this thread so far.
EastALHunter
Senior Member
Not completely disagreeing.....
with what you have to say as I alluded to it in a post earlier with all of the breeders I work with - many use higher fat diets without nutritional problems. However, none I know of are seeing big jumps in inches when swapping to a high fat feed - one of them in particular has fed the latest by-pass fat, high energy product that is really pricey with no noticeable jump. What I would be most interested in seeing is what the ingredients were in the feed or feeds you fed before the 14% fat feed and the ingredients in the 14% fat feed you feed now - that most often tells the story. The other thing to know would be feed consumption (pounds per head per day) before and after. Not surprised you are seeing those results but just not sure it's coming from the fat itself.
As I have posted in threads before, any growing cell (including velvet antler cells) need raw amino acids or digestible energy to grow using the Kreb's cycle. The question becomes which is most effective. I have seen more evidence that it is the amount of amino acids that come from by-pass protein sources than I have that comes from digestible energy. If it was purely fat, then people would be growing monster deer on those low cost extruded nuggets you can buy for $8 a bag that are 12% fat. That's not happening.
Like I said, I would like to see the protein and fat sources before and after and I'd also like to see the feed consumption before and after. Higher fat almost always increases consumption which leads to more amino acids for velvet antler cells to grow faster.
The roasted soybean/corn mix is definitely a good feed choice but the cost is what makes it prohibitive for folks down South that are feeding 2 tons or more a week. At 190 pounds of by-pass protein per ton, it is doable in a high end pellet for less money. The kicker is the 40 pounds of added soybean oil that adds pure fat but at a very high cost.
If you want to pm me the ingredients in your feeds before and after I can give you an analysis of what I see. I will not post those ingredients or share them with anyone else. I've seen every possible ingredient formula you can imagine so there's no massive secrets in the feed industry - it all comes down to what ingredients you select in what quantities and how those meet a targeted nutritional goal.
with what you have to say as I alluded to it in a post earlier with all of the breeders I work with - many use higher fat diets without nutritional problems. However, none I know of are seeing big jumps in inches when swapping to a high fat feed - one of them in particular has fed the latest by-pass fat, high energy product that is really pricey with no noticeable jump. What I would be most interested in seeing is what the ingredients were in the feed or feeds you fed before the 14% fat feed and the ingredients in the 14% fat feed you feed now - that most often tells the story. The other thing to know would be feed consumption (pounds per head per day) before and after. Not surprised you are seeing those results but just not sure it's coming from the fat itself.
As I have posted in threads before, any growing cell (including velvet antler cells) need raw amino acids or digestible energy to grow using the Kreb's cycle. The question becomes which is most effective. I have seen more evidence that it is the amount of amino acids that come from by-pass protein sources than I have that comes from digestible energy. If it was purely fat, then people would be growing monster deer on those low cost extruded nuggets you can buy for $8 a bag that are 12% fat. That's not happening.
Like I said, I would like to see the protein and fat sources before and after and I'd also like to see the feed consumption before and after. Higher fat almost always increases consumption which leads to more amino acids for velvet antler cells to grow faster.
The roasted soybean/corn mix is definitely a good feed choice but the cost is what makes it prohibitive for folks down South that are feeding 2 tons or more a week. At 190 pounds of by-pass protein per ton, it is doable in a high end pellet for less money. The kicker is the 40 pounds of added soybean oil that adds pure fat but at a very high cost.
If you want to pm me the ingredients in your feeds before and after I can give you an analysis of what I see. I will not post those ingredients or share them with anyone else. I've seen every possible ingredient formula you can imagine so there's no massive secrets in the feed industry - it all comes down to what ingredients you select in what quantities and how those meet a targeted nutritional goal.
Something else to look at
One thing I've started looking at is powder minerals. I've fed hi-mag this winter and now use an all purpose for summer. What I've seen so far is the deer, like cattle, seem to load up when first introduced then lower consumption after a couple days.
I compared bagged deer mineral to cow mineral and found them so similar I use the cattle min as it's half the cost.
I know with cattle it promotes growth and milk production and I've been told the hi-magnesium in winter promotes antler growth through summer.
We see over the next couple seasons.
and please support your local feed supply and stay out of TSC..
One thing I've started looking at is powder minerals. I've fed hi-mag this winter and now use an all purpose for summer. What I've seen so far is the deer, like cattle, seem to load up when first introduced then lower consumption after a couple days.
I compared bagged deer mineral to cow mineral and found them so similar I use the cattle min as it's half the cost.
I know with cattle it promotes growth and milk production and I've been told the hi-magnesium in winter promotes antler growth through summer.
We see over the next couple seasons.
and please support your local feed supply and stay out of TSC..
Prodigal Hunter
Senior Member
Thanks David - this has been very informative and helpful.
davidhelmly
Senior Member
You're welcome PH, thank you to everyone that has added some great info to the post also!
jackson1
Member
We also feed a deer mineral along with our protein feed. I said deer mineral not cattle mineral because products are formulated for certain animals. Cows have horns and deer have antlers. After a lot on research I found that deer need a 2-1 or 1-1 calcium phosphorus ratio. The thing with some cattle minerals and deer attractant minerals is they are high in salt. So a deer will eat a lot of mineral. If the deer is already on a premium deeper feed with a high-end mineral package they don't need extra minerals. They end up peeing them out. Also the last 30 days of velvet is when 30-40% of mineral absorbortion occurs, so we make sure to have the minerals out then. Because deer in our part of the world need salt we just keep a salt block (not trace mineral block because they only have 5 ounces of mineral in a 50 lbs block) out with out deer minerals and feeders. Everything is kept side-by-side for ease of use and to keep it easy on us. Thanks David for the info! Glad to know we are getting what we pay for when we buy a premium deer feed.
shdw633
Senior Member
I tend to put minerals in the same area as our feeders but away from them because I feel big bucks tend to be leery of feeders; however, they will go to a mineral site that is away from them.
Buckbuster69
Senior Member
good stuff guys but I have been managing whitetails for 20+yrs when you hardly even heard the words food plots and mineral sites and another study from UGA note that yes calcium & phosphorus were critical as well as selenium if not too much which will be toxic. I also know that monocalcium phosphate and di-calcium phosphate are crucial in mineral sites. Just my 2 cents for what its worth and I have a house full of deer heads that cost more than 2 cents!! LOL
HOGDOG76
Senior Member
And I thought it was tough just deciding whether to buy the apple flavored or regular corn...............
