Forgiveness

Thread starter #21
Tough topic. Questions bring more questions for me.

1) Are we commanded to do more than God does when it comes to forgiveness? Luke 17:3-4 seems to indicate we forgive only those who repent. Does God forgive those who do not repent?
For those who do not change their mind aka repent of their unbelief concerning the cross and the resurrection yes these do not have forgiveness. Our forgiveness from God is contingent on his perfect offering and our acceptance of it.
I'm not sure what you meant by doing more than God, but I'd say in every situation we forgive we then enjoy the fruit of that decision, in peace and letting go of the bitterness ... when we pass along forgiveness for any offense we encounter, big or small.
 
But time heals these things.
Time never heals anything. Dealing with issues is what brings healing.

Sure time may dull the emotions that go with the event, but the emotions are still there, buried. Festering. And awaiting a moment at some future date to erupt. They may erupt on the person responsible for the hurt, or they may erupt on some poor unsuspecting soul that just happened to be there at the time.

I know that I have snapped at my children because of something my wife did to upset me. I was short with them, when what I was dealing with had nothing to do with the child that happened to be the object of my emotional outburst. The anger that builds is always because something I value has been threatened. It was an unwanted imposition on my time, or a strongly held belief that was defiled. Or maybe a relationship that was strained because of an action. But it is always the result of a perceived threat against something I value.

That is where the forgiveness comes into play. I have to forgive that trespass in order for my emotional state to return to normal. If I can't forgive, then every time that situation is brought to mind, my heart rate will increase, blood pressure will rise, and my emotions will be on edge. Not through a choice that I have made, but because there is that threat in the background.

To eliminate the perceived threat, I must be willing to deal with it. Forgiveness is the only path that will bring healing to myself, and hopefully to the party I think wronged me.
 

Madman

Senior Member
For those who do not change their mind aka repent of their unbelief concerning the cross and the resurrection yes these do not have forgiveness. Our forgiveness from God is contingent on his perfect offering and our acceptance of it.
I'm not sure what you meant by doing more than God, but I'd say in every situation we forgive we then enjoy the fruit of that decision, in peace and letting go of the bitterness ... when we pass along forgiveness for any offense we encounter, big or small.
I meant does God command us to forgive in all cases for everything? I would say no because he sometimes withholds forgiveness.


True repentance is good; II Corinthians 7:9 Now I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because your grief led to repentance; for you felt a godly grief, so that you were not harmed in any way by us. 10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.

1 John 1: 9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The seven times passage from Luke 17 sheds some light.
Luke 17: 3-4:
If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.


From this passage is seems that Christ calls us to forgive just as God does, If he repents.

I agree with "letting go of bitterness" but I see we are called to do that not through forgiveness but through love. We are not capable of this except through Christ. God is love and desires us to share his infinite love with everyone even those who wish us ill. I believe St. Thomas Aquinas definition of love fits quit well in this situation. He said that love is 'willing the good of another'.

Therefore if we put, what I believe are two Biblical directives or commandments into practice;
1) forgive the repentant
2) Love everyone even your enemy (I don't have to like them but I do have to "will their good")

Then I must show the love of Christ and if they repent, hopefully love brings them to repentance, then I must forgive.

Just my thoughts.
 
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1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I will be honest here. If someone steals from me, I can forgive easily enough. It's an item, and can likely be replaced... and may not have needed it anyway. Hurt, emotional hurt would be different. It creates a personal wound. Wounds take time to heal. But as with most people, even secular people, time heals these things. Being honest here, in regards here to my hypothetical extreme offense, sometimes I think, can I, could I just make myself forgive? I don't think I could just because I felt I was supposed to. Even more honesty, I think I would not want to forgive. I would have an inner battle of refusing to forgive. Justifying as they don't deserve to be forgiven. Worse than this, I would probably have an inner battle of letting God have vengeance rather than myself. I would have peace in jail that I would never have doing nothing. But help me Father to never have to deal with this. This could break a man, bring him to his knees, the battle of biblical forgiveness. This is heavy, not that I wish I had never seen this thread, but that we must "work out our faith"
 

Madman

Senior Member
I will be honest here. If someone steals from me, I can forgive easily enough. It's an item, and can likely be replaced... and may not have needed it anyway. Hurt, emotional hurt would be different. It creates a personal wound. Wounds take time to heal. But as with most people, even secular people, time heals these things. Being honest here, in regards here to my hypothetical extreme offense, sometimes I think, can I, could I just make myself forgive? I don't think I could just because I felt I was supposed to. Even more honesty, I think I would not want to forgive. I would have an inner battle of refusing to forgive. Justifying as they don't deserve to be forgiven. Worse than this, I would probably have an inner battle of letting God have vengeance rather than myself. I would have peace in jail that I would never have doing nothing. But help me Father to never have to deal with this. This could break a man, bring him to his knees, the battle of biblical forgiveness. This is heavy, not that I wish I had never seen this thread, but that we must "work out our faith"
What if the person came to you with a "broken and contrite heart" begging for your forgiveness?
 
Tough topic. Questions bring more questions for me.

1) Are we commanded to do more than God does when it comes to forgiveness? Luke 17:3-4 seems to indicate we forgive only those who repent. Does God forgive those who do not repent?
Good question. God only forgives those who repent like you mentioned. So is he asking us to forgive everyone that trespass against us? Also in line with loving our neighbor? Maybe we are suppose to love everyone like God does but only forgive those who repent.

Then again maybe God does ask us to do more than him. Maybe God can decide who to love and forgive but we don't have that option.
 

Madman

Senior Member
What degree of offense?
A month ago two guys mugged my son at gun point, took everything he had, then tried to force him into his own truck, a fight insude. Once he heard the gun sliding across the parking lot my son ran. He called me at 11:30 that night pretty shook and I left for Birmingham AL with the intent of finding 2 males in a stolen black dodge p/u.
3 hours later I arrived praying for those males praying they get caught before they do something that truly changes the trajectory of their life or someone they encounter.

Should they ask for forgiveness I would apply it. Until then I am called only to love.

I don't see how unforgiveness causes bitterness. I do see how lack of love can cause bitterness.

God so loved the world......
At Pentecost the crowd cried what must we do, the response was "REPENT" and be baptized.

Forgiveness is given when asked for, the unrepentant sinner will always be an unrepentant sinner.

As I am forgiven when I repent, I give forgiveness. I must always love.

Very difficult but Biblical.
 
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1gr8bldr

Senior Member
A month ago two guys mugged my son at gun point, took everything he had, then tried to force him into his own truck, a fight insude. Once he heard the gun sliding across the parking lot my son ran. He called me at 11:30 that night pretty shook and I left for Birmingham AL with the intent of finding 2 males in a stolen black dodge p/u.
3 hours later I arrived praying for those males praying they get caught before they do something that truly changes the trajectory of their life or someone they encounter.

Should they ask for forgiveness I would apply it. Until then I am called only to love.

I don't see how unforgiveness causes bitterness. I do see how lack of love can cause bitterness.

God so loved the world......
At Pentecost the crowd cried what must we do, the response was "REPENT" and be baptized.

Forgiveness is given when asked for, the unrepentant sinner will always be an unrepentant sinner.

As I am forgiven when I repent, I give forgiveness. I must always love.

Very difficult but Biblical.
LOL, I fantasize over how I would make them pay. Na, just kidding, or am I? I have the mindset that I have never messed with anybody therefore nobody better not ever mess with me or my family. If you call a chronic criminal, drug addict, etc, a liar, He's hardly offended. You call someone whom has strived all his life to be honest, even if it cost him something, a liar, and you have just poked a sleeping bull. I have given this much thought today, so in conclusion this day, my rational is that God would not expect me to forgive someone of the extreme hypothetical offense I posed. It is a slippery slope to discredit Matthew by not believing him, or the small handful of other verses that I feel are ambiguous context regarding how believers should get along. But then, there is much of the book of Matthew that I don't believe. If the Holy Spirit had authored this book then it would have no mistakes, like Matthew's
so called symbolic 14, 14, 14 generations that were actually more. And his non understanding the lingo of the day, when the text read, on the foal, on the foal of a donkey, [something like that] and had Jesus riding in straddling two donkeys. If I said I was riding in a red car, a fancy red car.... we would know that to be one car. not Matthew. The Holy Spirit don't make those mistakes.
 
Thread starter #31
I struggle with that. Really it.should be any degree. Not sure I am man enough, or Christian enough.
At the right time God gives us grace for what we cannot do in our flesh effort. It's important to know who we are, better ... who lives within us ... that can make the impossible possible. (Lol, I thought you said that?) 😉👍
 
Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Wouldn't that be really hard to do? To be kind to ungrateful people? God is kind to the wicked even. His rain falls on the unrighteous.

So maybe God wants us to forgive and not expect anything in return.
 
Thread starter #33
Here's a healing addition to the mix by the same author, advice worth holding ...
========

It was wrong in so many ways, and hurt you deeply. It should never have happened. But it's up to you to not let it keep happening. Take its power away by bringing it into the light with someone you can trust. Starve it to death by forgiving. Even if they never know, forgive for your own sake. Release them from your hate, so God can heal you in his love.

You’re not defined by lies, wounds, rejections, or betrayals. Jesus is healing, strengthening, blessing, and transforming you. You should never have had to deal with this, but you always have access to all the grace and truth you need to overcome it.

This is a brand new day. You are new. Take a step forward in that newness by listening to what God is saying about who you’re becoming, rather than falling back into what pain has been lying you’ll always be.

“Anyone who belongs to Christ has become a completely new person. The old life is gone, and a new life has begun” (2 Corinthians 5:17).
 
Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Wouldn't that be really hard to do? To be kind to ungrateful people? God is kind to the wicked even. His rain falls on the unrighteous.

So maybe God wants us to forgive and not expect anything in return.
amen.

"we have been fishing all night...caught nothing. we still expect to catch nothing. to us it looks like there is absolutely nothing to be caught. we know as well as any about this stuff because we are fisherman. we have learned when stuff is fruitless to do and when not.

Nevertheless at your word..."

It doesn't matter how or what situation can be inserted there.

I have never found the Lord patiently working with me in any other way.
Limited seeing, understanding, faith, experience, any form of what passes for "my" compassion...meets the One unlimited in all.

as a grain of mustard seed...then becomes a precious word to us, as all eventually do.
 
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