God to the Founding Fathers

[atlashunter]

Googe him. That’s what I did. If it’s a lie I guess it makes all of google resources suspect.,

You made the claim. If it’s a lie you should say so instead of telling someone else to go validate it for you.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Thomas Jefferson wrote that “all men are created equal,” and yet enslaved more than six-hundred people over the course of his life.
It's like on one hand he knew it was wrong but on the other hand, he couldn't quit.
He also thought Blacks to be inferior to White people.

Maybe it was a if you can't beat them, join them attitude. I tend to think of people who think the Jail Report is wrong, won't buy one but will look at someone else's copy.
Folks against the Lottery when it was up for vote but will now buy lottery tickets.

 

[Artfuldodger]

To test Google,read about John Adams, his wife, and women's rights. He did get the slavery part right, just not the women's right part.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Madison had slaves most of his adult life as well even though he knew it was wrong.

When you think about it, wouldn't the D.O.I. and the timing be the perfect fruition to work in the rights of everyone? Not just the talk but the walk.

Womens, Blacks, Homos, Pagans, Native Americans, etc.

 

[Spotlite]

You made the claim. If it’s a lie you should say so instead of telling someone else to go validate it for you.

I didn`t ask you to validate......just search like I did.

https://www.heritage.org/american-founders/report/how-understand-slavery-and-the-american-founding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Burgesses

Thomas Jefferson wrote that “all men are created equal,” and yet enslaved more than six-hundred people over the course of his life.
It's like on one hand he knew it was wrong but on the other hand, he couldn't quit.
He also thought Blacks to be inferior to White people.

Maybe it was a if you can't beat them, join them attitude. I tend to think of people who think the Jail Report is wrong, won't buy one but will look at someone else's copy.
Folks against the Lottery when it was up for vote but will now buy lottery tickets.

Did Virginia law make it easy to free slaves?

Start at page 39.
http://vagenweb.org/hening/vol11-02.htm

https://gettingjeffersonright.com/1782manumissionlaw/

http://edu.lva.virginia.gov/online_classroom/shaping_the_constitution/doc/drake

https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/_An_ACT_to_amend_the_several_laws_concerning_slaves_1806

 

[Spotlite]

When you think about it, wouldn't the D.O.I. and the timing be the perfect fruition to work in the rights of everyone?

I believe it did just that..........although not overnight, it was the turn in the right direction.

 

[Miguel Cervantes]

Before this discussion advances and more founding fathers are given credit for saying or writing something that they did not originally come up with may I suggest you folks study the "Mayflower Compact" by John Winthrop and "A Modell of Christian Charity" by John Winthrop.

Some of what you, and even some errant authors of books you have quoted, are giving credit where it is not due.

 

[atlashunter]

Madison had slaves most of his adult life as well even though he knew it was wrong.

When you think about it, wouldn't the D.O.I. and the timing be the perfect fruition to work in the rights of everyone? Not just the talk but the walk.

Womens, Blacks, Homos, Pagans, Native Americans, etc.

Virtually none of them thought it was a good idea to have blacks and whites living together as equals in the same society. From Jefferson to Lincoln most thought ending slavery should involve colonizing the freed blacks out of North America. That coupled with the economic considerations made it a difficult problem even for abolitionists.

 

[Spotlite]

Before this discussion advances and more founding fathers are given credit for saying or writing something that they did not originally come up with may I suggest you folks study the "Mayflower Compact" by John Winthrop and "A Modell of Christian Charity" by John Winthrop.

Some of what you, and even some errant authors of books you have quoted, are giving credit where it is not due.

I have seen debate since the original document was lost. Non the less, Bradford was a signer and his transcript can be found.

Interesting that some believe the Christian ideology had no affect on the ultimate framing of the constitution. Some still believe that it was all about "freedom from religion".

"Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another; covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices"

 

[Artfuldodger]

I have seen debate since the original document was lost. Non the less, Bradford was a signer and his transcript can be found.

Interesting that some believe the Christian ideology had no affect on the ultimate framing of the constitution. Some still believe that it was all about "freedom from religion".

"Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another; covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices"

How do you feel this Christian ideology's affect had on their mindset to view that "all men are created equal?"
From the OP, he feels the liberals don't believe religious individuals are getting their fair share of the freedom. That the framers, more or less, set it up for the religious individuals and now the liberals are trying to say differently.

It seems to be a bit of an enigma. Either the founders were Christian or at least religious and framed our government to be or either they set it up to give everyone the same equality, rights, and freedom.

The argument on one hand seems to be saying the framers were Christians and so based on this, the rights were only for the religious. That the freedoms were from the Creator.
That this Creator and his religion was the basis for their thought process so therefore it didn't give Atheist, Pagans, Blacks, Women, and homosexuals the same equality.

Then on the other hand the argument is that based on their beliefs of a Creator that all of His creation have certain rights to life, liberty, and happiness.
That the founders were so in tune to this concept that it opened the doors or started the ball rolling for equality for all.

I would think it had to be one or the other. Either they were these really deep enlightened individuals who wanted to give everyone equality or they weren't.
Again they talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. They didn't give equality to Atheist. That's part of what many on here keep saying. It was set up to give religious people the right to worship as they please, not the right to no worship.
Like some fraternities and organizations, just believe in any God and you're in.

That the founders didn't give nor did they have any desire to even consider giving rights to every indiviual. It was a campaign to convince the people to declare independence.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I 'll use the mindset of my Dad as an example. He has never thought Blacks and women to be equal to Whites or men. I'm sure his feeling on Atheist would not be equality with Christians. I don't believe he would consider the rights of individuals practicing other religions as well equal to Christianity in America.

Now that being said, he was a patriotic and outstanding citizen. At least in the mindset of the white Christian towns people in which he lived. He would sing equality in Church and read it in the Bible. He would read it in the Declaration of Independence. In his heart he believed it and was never disrespectful to blacks or women.

Yet in another part of his mind is this other person. I don't believe he is alone and maybe it was the same mindset of the founding fathers as well.

Dad will be turning 96 in a couple of weeks. He gets along fine with most folks, even Blacks and womens. But deep down, I know what he believes.
I don't fault him for it. It was the way it was in the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's.
Maybe it was like that leading up to the signing of that Deceleration of Independence.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Jefferson did not invent the ideas that he used to justify the American Revolution. Jefferson was a man of the "Enlightenment."

Jefferson did not invent the ideas that he used to justify the American Revolution. He himself said that he had adopted the "harmonizing sentiments of the day." These ideas were, so to speak, "in the air" at the time.

It's like they had this mindset or enlightenment of believing in natural rights from the Creator and used this for a justification to write the D.O.I.
Then later put that thought process to the side and used a different mindset to write the actual Legal Rights.

It's like the Enlightenment gave them this desire but in reality the realistic mind took over for writing the actual legal rights.

I wonder if man can remove the Creator's natural rights with his legal rights?

So do we go with the founder's ideals on natural rights or do we go with their actual legal rights because I don't see them as being that close in actuality. One is a feel good enlightenment and the other is the paper of when the rubber hits the pavement.

It's back to that thing that's deep in our mind vs the actual thing we are willing to write on paper when it comes to giving rights or equality to everyone.