God's purpose in choosing Israel?

Thread starter #1
Regardless of how we see salvation as always existing for every individual and how God could call that one individual from all creation, God chose Israel.
God chose the lineage through Adam, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Hard to deny that God predestined that lineage. Thus he chose or had a plan for Israel. Understanding that not all who is from Israel is Israel, still God had a plan or purpose for the natural lineage or genealogy.
In fact the Son of God is from the lineage of David.

Was that all there is to his Israel plan? Just to make Jesus born a Jew? Perhaps but what about the Mosaic Covenant? Set up by God between him and this lineage. Were they just randomly chosen for the nation to show other nations that man could not follow the Law?

God, a God that is not a respecter of man. The God that offers salvation based on grace and nothing else. The God that chose Israel.

There must be a deeper piece of the mystery I'm missing. Maybe it was revealed to Paul and I missed it.

If it never was about national Israel then why did God make the division? Salvation comes from the Jews(Jesus) All nations will be blessed through the offspring of Abraham(Jesus)

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Not trying to deny that God would ever not justify the salvation of Gentiles by faith.
Maybe the Children of God have always been who they were as elected before Creation.

Not saying that the descendants of Abraham are all the Children of God. Not arguing who the "children of the promise" are.

What I'm seeking is why Israel? Why one nation? Does Scripture even reveal this? Why did God present it as being the Jewish thing if it never was a Jewish thing?
Perhaps if it was originally a Jewish thing, then why did God change it to a not a Jewish thing?
Either way it either started out as a Jewish thing that changed for what ever reason or it never was a Jewish thing. Yet it is presented by scripture as at least starting out as a Jewish thing.
 
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Thread starter #2
Was the Law was given to Israel to show that man could not keep the Law?

Galatians 3:22-24
But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ, the promise might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the Law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the Law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

"until faith should be revealed"

Is that an event in time such as the coming of Jesus or one's individual realization? I kinda read it as the Law being our guardian until Christ came.
I can also see it as until Christ came into your heart. Until your faith came. Even if that happened before Christ came to the Earth.

Not sure how this relates to Israel but it is called the Mosaic Law.
Back to God choosing Israel to demonstrate this Law concept.

I can see a nation chosen by God to demonstrate that the world could never keep the Law. Thus all needing a Messiah. I also see God choosing a nation that would be chosen to bless all nations through them in the form of a Savior.
God chose the same nation for both. The same nation he gave the covenant to he also gave the Savior to(from). Yet in reality none of us could keep the Law and we were all in need of a Savior.

We were all guilty of sin and we were all offered salvation. At least the Children of the promise. But for some reason God chose Israel.
"All" meaning Jews and Gentiles, male and female.

Is there a version of Christianity that isn't Jewish or didn't start out as being Jewish? Maybe a white version or an American version, or a Gentile version.
One that doesn't show a Gentile inclusion. One that we can call our own and not be judged as being arrogant about. One that shows no Jewish ties. One that shows who the true Christians are.
One that we can boast being a part of without being labeled as anti-Semitic.

If we can't remove all the Jewish genealogy from Christianity can we have a version that shows they were chosen for failure to bring salvation to the true Israel? A version that says it never was about them but always about us. The Children of the Promise.

Edit; Failure not being the correct word. God blinding national Israel to turn Christ over to the Romans was no failure.
I don't think we can say Israel failed in that respect. It wouldn't be right to say the blinding or hardening was a failure. It was a need to bring salvation to the world.
 
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gordon 2

Senior Member
Regardless of how we see salvation as always existing for every individual and how God could call that one individual from all creation, God chose Israel.
God chose the lineage through Adam, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Hard to deny that God predestined that lineage. Thus he chose or had a plan for Israel. Understanding that not all who is from Israel is Israel, still God had a plan or purpose for the natural lineage or genealogy.
In fact the Son of God is from the lineage of David.

Was that all there is to his plan? Just to make Jesus born a Jew? Perhaps but what about the Mosaic Covenant? Set up by God between him and this lineage. Were they just randomly chosen for the nation to show other nations that man could not follow the Law?

God, a God that is not a respecter of man. The God that offers salvation based on grace and nothing else. The God that chose Israel.

There must be a deeper piece of the mystery I'm missing. Maybe it was revealed to Paul and I missed it.

If it never was about national Israel then why did God make the division? Salvation comes from the Jews(Jesus) All nations will be blessed through the offspring of Abraham(Jesus)

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Not trying to deny that God would ever not justify the salvation of Gentiles by faith.
Maybe the Children of God have always been who they were as elected before Creation.

Not saying that the descendants of Abraham are all the Children of God. Not arguing who the "children of the promise" are.

What I'm seeking is why Israel? Why one nation? Does Scripture even tell reveal this? Why did God present it as being the Jewish thing if it never was a Jewish thing?
Perhaps if it was originally a Jewish thing, then why did God change it to a not a Jewish thing?
Either way it either started out as a Jewish thing that changed for what ever reason or it never was a Jewish thing. Yet it is presented by scripture as at least starting out as a Jewish thing.

Ok this is what I get from my perhaps simpleton's way of looking at things:

1. It was about a Hebrew people ( not Jews yet)

2. It was not about any or all Hebrew people, it was about one said captive, or enslaved, in or by Egypt--way back when.

3. They were also spiritually stubborn people by God's standards and could easily cleave to foreign gods for temporal reasons---as is the case with people in desperate or survival mode.

In other words, Hebrews were a prime people for God's plan because they were in the grasps of the world both temporally and spiritually. They were good as lost, an ignorant people perhaps, a minority people at the whims of foreign kings and empire.

In many ways the Hebrews and who would become latter Isreal would be talked about as an individual servant of God. It is a rags to riches story with many new beginnings, ups and downs.

Everything about the history of Hebrews and Isreal is also prime example of an individual's life ( a person in general) from being a slave to the worldly, formed by the world of enmity, to being ransomed or freed by God and on to salvation and servant-witness standing alone before the Creator of all things good and wholesome.

In other words perhaps, the Hebrew captives were at the rock bottom due to the consequences of the fall... They were no more than draft animals. And then Moses shows up and well... you know the rest of the story.
 
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Thread starter #4
Then God chose an outcast of a nation to teach the world a rags to richs story. That with God even a group as bull headed as the Jews who kept worshiping idols could eventually be saved.

Using that same group of misfits to deliver His Son in to. Making His Son a part of that very group. That very nation. A King of a misfit nation who was born in a stable and not a palace.

To teach the world to maybe look where they never suspect. Look at the underclass, the misfits. That is where you'll find hope and peace.
That is where you will find the Messiah.

Jesus said when you help the sick, it is me. When you visit the prisons, you are visiting me.

Still though why Israel? If salvation was always for the whole world. If it never was about Israel, then why was it presented as such.

Weren't there a lot of misfit groups in the world even when God chose those Hebrews? Even before Adam's physical death, there were a lot of people on the earth.
The lineage of the Jews and Jesus is a pretty in depth part of the Bible. But their ancestors were not all Children of the promise. Those children were from the whole world. Chosen before Creation.

I guess God thought it best to originally choose just one nation to make it easier to understand all the things he wanted the world to understand. Sin, Law, Love, Salvation, etc.
So instead of presenting it to the whole world he needed a country to use as His lesson plan.
The whole world could see what he has done to Israel and what he will do to Israel. The whole world could see that God could save even a wretched country like Israel. Even having His Son become a part of it when becoming a man. A wretched nation bringing blessings to the world. Their King born in a stable.

In that line of thinking and from the Ezekiel passage. Could the final part of the lesson plan be when God says what He will do to Israel?
Doesn't the passage say the whole world will see what he did, how he will restore this bull headed, stiff necked nation and know that He is God?
 
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j_seph

Senior Member
May help a little about Israel I found this
In general, the seven ‘Israels’ found in the Bible will always fall into one of three categories: a person, a nation, or part of a nation.


As a person, Israel would be Jacob, the father of the twelve tribes that eventually became the nation that bore his name. God had changed his name from Jacob to Israel, which loosely means “he who prevails with God and overcomes,” after he survived a wrestling match with the Angel of the Lord (Gen. 35:10). However, Israel as a person can also be Yeshua, for he is the “seed” who inherits all the promises (Gal. 3:16).


As a nation, Israel would be the whole nation of twelve tribes.


But where it gets tricky is when Israel stands for just part of the nation, because there are four ways to understand a partial Israel.


First, it could be the name of the ten-tribe kingdom that formed after Solomon’s united nation split into the two kingdoms of Israel in the north and Judah in the south.


Secondly, it could be referring to the two-tribe southern kingdom of Judah which took sole possession of the title after the northern kingdom was exiled among the nations. The descendants of Judah became known as “the Jews” after they were deported to Babylon. When they returned to the land they became the Israel we encounter in the New Testament. It is mostly their descendants who’ve returned again to establish today’s Jewish state.


Thirdly, ‘Israel in part’ can be understood as the Israel within Israel. This Israel represents just the chosen descendants (like Jacob), who Paul distinguished in Romans 9 from those physical offspring who were not chosen (like Esau).


Finally, Paul calls the body of Messiah “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16), which shows the ecclesia is the continuation of chosen Israel, but now under the New Covenant. This verse, along with Revelation 7:4, are the only two times in the NT (out of 79 references to Israel) where the followers of Yeshua are clearly addressed as Israel. I think the reason God kept references to the ecclesia being Israel to a minimum was He didn’t want us to think we had replaced the Jewish nation. Which, as we know, the institutional church tried to do anyway.


The fact is, the Jews retained sole possession to the title ‘Israel’ even though they rejected Yeshua as Messiah. Didn’t Paul tell us “a partial hardening has happened to Israel [meaning the Jewish people], until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?” (Rom. 11:25). However, in the next sentence he informs us that when all the “Gentiles” come in, that “all Israel will be saved.” Here the name “Israel’ has been expanded to mean the whole nation – not just the Jews!


I believe there is a day coming, and coming soon, when all the confusion over who or what is Israel will suddenly disappear. The whole world will see the Israel of God revealed in glory as both one nation and one person in Messiah!
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Here it is in a nut shell. God used the nation of Israel to send His Son for the redemption of the world. The entire Bible focal point is Jesus from beginning to end. It all points to Him, the One and Only Redeemer. It shows the genealogy from start to finish. It also shows that a perfect God chose imperfect vessels to work His purposes out .It points to the magnitude of His Mercies towards us His Creation. It is also recorded for us as imperfect vessels to have hope , because trust me no one other than God knows our sin like we do ourselves. Our shortcomings are designed by God to drive us to Him.
 
Thread starter #7
The fact is, the Jews retained sole possession to the title ‘Israel’ even though they rejected Yeshua as Messiah. Didn’t Paul tell us “a partial hardening has happened to Israel [meaning the Jewish people], until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?” (Rom. 11:25). However, in the next sentence he informs us that when all the “Gentiles” come in, that “all Israel will be saved.” Here the name “Israel’ has been expanded to mean the whole nation – not just the Jews!


I believe there is a day coming, and coming soon, when all the confusion over who or what is Israel will suddenly disappear. The whole world will see the Israel of God revealed in glory as both one nation and one person in Messiah!
Does Romans 11 start out talking about national Israel? The remnant was chosen from national Israel. Even in verse 28 it says
"as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,"
So we know that Paul is talking about national Israel when he says;
"I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin."

Now getting to the later parts. The rest of national Israel was hardened until the Gentiles were grafted in to Israel. I see that part.

What I don't understand is that since the whole chapter is about national Israel and the Gentiles being grafted in, why would the meaning suddenly change in verse 26? When even in verse 25 it was still national Israel. If that was true why did Paul need to warn the Gentiles not to be conceited about their grafting?

Maybe I'm not following you on what the whole nation is concerning the "whole nation and not just the Jews." I can see that if you mean because the Gentiles were grafted in to that commonwealth and it isn't just the Jews.
Still though Paul says "All Israel will be saved." The whole chapter has been about national Israel and the Gentiles being grafted in to that nation.

Let's back up to after the Remnant was chosen. The rest were hardened. Forever? Until? Did they stumble to the point they could not recover? Who? The rest of Israel. Paul said "how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!" He had to be talking about the ones that were hardened which was national Israel.

From Paul; A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

He will remove godlessness from Jacob. That's what this whole chapter is about. True the Gentiles are now a part of Jacob but it's still Jacob. The meaning of Jacob didn't change from verse 25 to verse 26.

Continue that thought from Paul;
And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

This has to be national Israel. I don't really see how, even with the grafting, one can see it any other way. How could newly grafted in Gentiles be a part of election on account of the patriarchs? Paul is explaining that national Israel were hardened to allow the Gentiles to be grafted in. So here in verses 28 and 29 he is talking about Jacob.

This from Paul is the proof positive. It even comes with a message that we won't understand it. That we might even see it as unfair;

30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

33
33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”
 
Thread starter #8
Until!
The rest were hardened until.
That blindness in part is happened to Israel, until

Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.

I'd say "until" verse 26 comes about.
"The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
 

j_seph

Senior Member
I really do not dig that deep just TBH. Wish I had the patience and maybe the intellect to do that at times. I know that I know that I know I am saved through his grace and that is the important thing for any Christian IMO. That you know that you know. Hope you find the answer you seek, if you know that you know then there will come a day he will call and you will say here am I and can the answer straight from the source. ;-)
 
Thread starter #10
I really do not dig that deep just TBH. Wish I had the patience and maybe the intellect to do that at times. I know that I know that I know I am saved through his grace and that is the important thing for any Christian IMO. That you know that you know. Hope you find the answer you seek, if you know that you know then there will come a day he will call and you will say here am I and can the answer straight from the source. ;-)
I did get kinda carried away with my response to yours.
Actually what I was looking for with this thread was more of "why Israel?" not the sequence of events involving Israel.

Perhaps why just one nation? Unless God wanted to use that "one nation" as a teaching tool. A way to present the Law and as a way to get out of that Law to all nations.
It's almost like Israel was this teaching tool, God's avenue or passage for the world. Verses say the other nations will see what God has done with Israel.

I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth (Isa 49.6)
For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the Lord will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising (Isa 60.2,3)

It's like this restoration will bring the world to it. It doesn't answer my question why Israel but it does answer why God will use one nation to do this.
 
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Israel

Senior Member
Who even made Israel...Israel...for the choosing?

You know...of all who have struggled in the "why" of things (and who doesn't? Or hasn't?) our brother Paul settled in a place which may not be the ultimate answer in all, but which may be sufficient for now. It is being made apparent.

This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the worst. But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience, as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life.


There is something that negates quite plainly anything and everything of boast that is not of the grace found in Jesus Christ. The plain sight to man...even to a man...that he is the mess, that has messed up all else he sees is not relieved nor extinguished by his improvement (which may come) nor by his efforts to do better. Or, to even understand more. (which may be granted).
 
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Regardless of how we see salvation as always existing for every individual and how God could call that one individual from all creation, God chose Israel.
God chose the lineage through Adam, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Hard to deny that God predestined that lineage. Thus he chose or had a plan for Israel. Understanding that not all who is from Israel is Israel, still God had a plan or purpose for the natural lineage or genealogy.
In fact the Son of God is from the lineage of David.

Was that all there is to his Israel plan? Just to make Jesus born a Jew? Perhaps but what about the Mosaic Covenant? Set up by God between him and this lineage. Were they just randomly chosen for the nation to show other nations that man could not follow the Law?

God, a God that is not a respecter of man. The God that offers salvation based on grace and nothing else. The God that chose Israel.

There must be a deeper piece of the mystery I'm missing. Maybe it was revealed to Paul and I missed it.

If it never was about national Israel then why did God make the division? Salvation comes from the Jews(Jesus) All nations will be blessed through the offspring of Abraham(Jesus)

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Not trying to deny that God would ever not justify the salvation of Gentiles by faith.
Maybe the Children of God have always been who they were as elected before Creation.

Not saying that the descendants of Abraham are all the Children of God. Not arguing who the "children of the promise" are.

What I'm seeking is why Israel? Why one nation? Does Scripture even reveal this? Why did God present it as being the Jewish thing if it never was a Jewish thing?
Perhaps if it was originally a Jewish thing, then why did God change it to a not a Jewish thing?
Either way it either started out as a Jewish thing that changed for what ever reason or it never was a Jewish thing. Yet it is presented by scripture as at least starting out as a Jewish thing.

12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you
.”
Last phrase of verse 3 may be a hint.
 

Israel

Senior Member
...that they may know that I Am God.
This caused me to look once again in to Isaiah, that prophet, especially in what is called chapter 45...and I am rebuked, heartened, encouraged, strengthened and comforted. Bless you brother.
 
As I am also encouraged.

Ps. 29
Ascribe to the Lord, O sons of the mighty,
Ascribe to the Lord glory and strength.
2 Ascribe to the Lord the glory due to His name;
Worship the Lord in the majesty of holiness.
 
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Thread starter #16
Isaiah 66:19
"I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations--to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations.

Did Israel ever accomplish this task during Old Testament times?
 
Thread starter #17
Ezekiel 20:5
and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘On the day I chose Israel, I swore an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt. With an uplifted hand I said to them, “I am the LORD your God.”

I would assume that Israel "knew" God.

2 Kings 17:15
They rejected His statutes and the covenant He had made with their fathers, as well as the decrees He had given them. They pursued worthless idols and themselves became worthless, going after the surrounding nations the LORD had commanded them not to imitate.

Psalm 106:20
They exchanged their Glory for the image of an ox that eats grass.

Jeremiah 2:11
Has a nation ever changed its gods? (though they were no gods at all!) Yet My people have exchanged their Glory for idols that are useless.
 
Isaiah 66:19
"I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations--to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations.

Did Israel ever accomplish this task during Old Testament times?
Ps. 29
Ascribe to the Lord, O sons of the mighty,
Ascribe to the Lord glory and strength.
2 Ascribe to the Lord the glory due to His name;
Worship the Lord in the majesty of holiness.

>>>scripture is not about men<<<
 
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