God's Salvation plan?

Thread starter #1
I was thinking how God had His salvation plan which was an answer to the Law plan. One can still try and follow the Law plan if you like.
Anyway the Law was to show us that we were too evil to keep it. It was just to show us the real plan. A shadow of Jesus.

That man is not righteous enough to keep law. That we needed our righteousness imputed.
Considering how hard the Law plan was, wouldn't it stand to reason the real salvation plan would be easy? Wasn't part of the allure that it was easy? That Christ had done the hard part? That all we had to do was accept his his suffering?

Christ did the suffering. The hard part. The yoke. The slavery. The legalism. The ceremonies. The rituals. The restrictions. The circumcisions.

If the Law was hard, wouldn't the Grace plan be easy for us? Otherwise, Jesus didn't do the hard part. His blood was shed for nothing. We could just try and save ourselves.
 
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Thread starter #2
Can you imagine approaching a Jew back in the day and trying to explain it to him? One who had lived a whole lifetime trying to please God by keeping the Law.
To now be told it was all in vain. That now there was a new way, a different way. A grace way. A cross way. To forget what your parents and teacher told you.
That now, all you have to do is believe that Jesus died on a cross for your inability to keep the Law. That Christ died to impute His righteousness to you. That you never had any in the first place.

Imagine if you were 60 and a Jew back then. Having tried all those years to be something that you never could.

Then to think you thought you had something special suddenly offered to the whole Gentile world. Talk about a humbling experience.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Can you imagine approaching a Jew back in the day and trying to explain it to him?
One who had lived a whole lifetime trying to please God by keeping the Law.
To now be told it was all in vain. That now there was a new way, a different way. A grace way. A cross way. To forget what your parents and teacher told you.
That now, all you have to do is believe that Jesus died on a cross for your inability to keep the Law. That Christ died to impute His righteousness to you. That you never had any in the first place.

Imagine if you were 60 and a Jew back then. Having tried all those years to be something that you never could.

Then to think you thought you had something special suddenly offered to the whole Gentile world. Talk about a humbling experience.

Now add to this

Can you imagine approaching a Jew back in the day and trying to explain it to him?
That the One who is preached from Heaven as Lord is the One crucified (hung on a tree) outside the walls of Jerusalem. The significance of that form "hung on a tree" is not lost upon the Jew.

But we are bolder. It is not lost on any man. One need not be a Jew, simply in the form of man to find the deepest repugnance to such a death, there. The offense of the cross is not reserved only to the Jew man. It offends all, as rightly it must. As rightly it has been determined to. That no man may find the glory there except it be revealed by God.

Salvation is of the Lord!


O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

And so God reserves to Himself explanation in all and any form and we be found only witnesses of what we have both seen and heard of the Lord.
 
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hawglips

Senior Member
If eternal life was so easy, it would seem that the gate we must enter into and the way we must walk to get there would not be so strait and narrow - such that "few there be that find it" - in contrast to the "many there be that go in" through the wide gate and broad way that leads to destruction. Seems to me the description Christ gave to the two paths would be reversed if it was easy. And it seems to me that most Christians take the mental approach that they are reversed.

And then the parable of the 10 virgins - believers who had called on and were waiting on the Lord - and to half of those believers - the less alert and prepared ones - He said, "I don't know you."

And if there was still any question on it, there is much clarity when He said that not every one that says to Him, "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven. That is reserved for those that do the will of the Father.

And the goats will be separated from the sheep based on what they did.
 
Thread starter #6
That's the big thing I see within the two camps of Christianity concerning salvation.
In one camp there is salvation for the saved vs the unsaved. The believers vs the unbelievers. The other camp it is salvation for the righteous vs the evil.

Even the resurrection is divided by the good vs the evil.

Matthew 13:49
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous.

John 5:29
and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

"those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

"there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
 

j_seph

Senior Member
51 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.


2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.


3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.


4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.


5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.


7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.


8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.


9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.


10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.


11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.


12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.


13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.


14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.


15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.


16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.


17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.



18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.


19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
 

j_seph

Senior Member
Matthew 13:49
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous.

John 5:29
and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
What is the difference between separate and sever, righteous and just?

What about the difference in this one?
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Sometimes it is just strange to me how scriptures are reworded from the old to the new.
 
Thread starter #10
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
What is the difference between separate and sever, righteous and just?

What about the difference in this one?
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Sometimes it is just strange to me how scriptures are reworded from the old to the new.
Then it's the separation of the "just" from the wicked? Perhaps a severing of the wicked from the "just."

I think the word was "dikaiōn"which means; just, correct, or righteous impl. innocent.

Could it be implied righteousness or imputed righteousness?

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
or
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
 
Thread starter #11
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
What is the difference between separate and sever, righteous and just?

What about the difference in this one?
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Sometimes it is just strange to me how scriptures are reworded from the old to the new.
OK, help me see John 5:29 in that same light;

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

The word here is "agatha" which means "the good." The verse says those that "have done good." It sounds like works but maybe the folks that have done good means believing.

If we compare the resurrection to the sheep and goats separation, it does sound like works. Feeding, giving drink, inviting a stranger, clothing the naked, helping the sick, & visiting prisoners.

If those things mentioned were not part of the reason for the separation, why were they given? The cursed were the ones who didn't do those good works to other men and thus Jesus.
 
Thread starter #12
Matthew 25:46(KJV)
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This time the word "righteous" is used for "dikaioi" instead of the "just." That interesting It's strange how the words of scripture are reworded from the old to old as well as from the old to the new.

Unless we just assume implied righteous by the blood of Christ.

Definition; correct, righteous, by implication innocent
Usage: just; especially, just in the eyes of God; righteous; the elect

I could see or understand it easier to mean that if it weren't for the separation of the sheep and goats based on those that did good from those that didn't do good.
 
Thread starter #13
It would be a lot easier to understand if all the verses about the resurrection said this;

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the saved and unsaved.
or
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the elect and unelect.

Maybe the just and unjust mean exactly that. The words above were added by me. Changed from the just and unjust or righteous and unrighteous.

If the interpreters did what I think they imply, would it be adding to or taking away from the Word of God?
 
If eternal life was so easy, it would seem that the gate we must enter into and the way we must walk to get there would not be so strait and narrow - such that "few there be that find it" - in contrast to the "many there be that go in" hithrough the wide gate and broad way that leads to destruction. Seems to me the description Christ gave to the two paths would be reversed if it was easy. And it seems to me that most Christians take the mental approach that they are reversed.

And then the parable of the 10 virgins - believers who had called on and were waiting on the Lord - and to half of those believers - the less alert and prepared ones - He said, "I don't know you."

And if there was still any question on it, there is much clarity when He said that not every one that says to Him, "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven. That is reserved for those that do the will of the Father.

And the goats will be separated from the sheep based on what they did.
Everyone has a goat nature. Some also have a sheep nature as well. There is a day when the goat is sent away into the wilderness never to be seen again. God does not "know" the goat.He tells it to depart. He knoweth His sheep. He tells it to inherit the kingdom.

remember. "I pray not for the world, but they that are in the world".
 
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gemcgrew

Senior Member
Everyone has a goat nature. Some also have a sheep nature as well. There is a day when the goat is sent away into the wilderness never to be seen again. God does not "know" the goat.He tells it to depart. He knoweth His sheep. He tells it to inherit the kingdom.

remember. "I pray not for the world, but they that are in the world".
I have never heard it said quite this way. There is something there that is causing me to hesitate in agreeing completely, but I am compelled to fully consider it.

Thanks for that.
 
I have never heard it said quite this way. There is something there that is causing me to hesitate in agreeing completely, but I am compelled to fully consider it.

Thanks for that.
Can anyone or any thing really depart from a God that is everywhere present and nowhere absent?
But, I fully believe that a nature can be fully annihilated. Light banishes darkness.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Can you imagine approaching a Jew back in the day and trying to explain it to him? One who had lived a whole lifetime trying to please God by keeping the Law.
To now be told it was all in vain. That now there was a new way, a different way. A grace way. A cross way. To forget what your parents and teacher told you.
That now, all you have to do is believe that Jesus died on a cross for your inability to keep the Law. That Christ died to impute His righteousness to you. That you never had any in the first place.

Imagine if you were 60 and a Jew back then. Having tried all those years to be something that you never could.

Then to think you thought you had something special suddenly offered to the whole Gentile world. Talk about a humbling experience.
They were never told it was all for nothing. They receive the promises just as we receive them... By Faith. But we have a better covenant than they, because ours is in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not bulls and goats. God's plan from the beginning was also to include the gentiles in His timing, just as everything else He does is in His timing. Not a moment too soon or too late. Right on time. The law was their schoolmaster that pointed them to their sin
 
Thread starter #18
They were never told it was all for nothing. They receive the promises just as we receive them... By Faith. But we have a better covenant than they, because ours is in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not bulls and goats. God's plan from the beginning was also to include the gentiles in His timing, just as everything else He does is in His timing. Not a moment too soon or too late. Right on time. The law was their schoolmaster that pointed them to their sin
His timing;

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

What were these "covenants of the promise" or "covenant of the promises?"
 
Thread starter #19
The apostle Paul says of them: “They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah” (Romans 9:4-5)

“ ‘Behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,’ says the Lord” (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
His timing;

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

What were these "covenants of the promise" or "covenant of the promises?"
The covenant of promise was that God the Son incarnate would came and take away the sin of the world. That was the promise God made to His covenant people Israel. People from the outside could also become covenant people in the Old Testament as well. Just as Ruth told Naomi.
16 But Ruth said:

“Entreat me not to leave you,
Or to turn back from following after you;
For wherever you go, I will go;
And wherever you lodge, I will lodge;
Your people shall be my people,
And your God, my God.
17 Where you die, I will die,
And there will I be buried.
The Lord do so to me, and more also,
If anything but death parts you and me.”

In order to become an Israelite you had to forsake your god, little g and follow after the One true God, big G. Go to Hebrews 11 and see it was by faith that they too walked.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
 
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