Hebrews 11:5

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Heb. 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should NOT SEE DEATH; and was not found , because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
ENOCH: faith's walk (v 5)
1 He walk with God 300 years
2 He was translated that he should not see death in his generation
3 He could not be found because God translated him (Gen. 5:21-24)
4 He had testimony that he please God by being a man of faith (v 5, 6)
5 He has be living in heaven over 5,265 years (Gen. 5:22; Zech. 4:11-14; Rev. 11:4)
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus words are clear...also what is clear is the absence of a statement in the bible that either Enoch or Elijah entered heaven.

So some folks will deny what Jesus said and accept a strange theological conclusion based on a mere hunch and no definitive answer?

Candlesticks are churches, not people.
 

Vectorman

Senior Member
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus words are clear...also what is clear is the absence of a statement in the bible that either Enoch or Elijah entered heaven.

So some folks will deny what Jesus said and accept a strange theological conclusion based on a mere hunch and no definitive answer?

Candlesticks are churches, not people.
Do you see 2 Kings 2:11 to mean that Elijah was taken up into the "atmosphere" heaven? Do you think that they went to the paradise side of hades until Jesus resurrection, or just that they are not in heaven at all?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Do you see 2 Kings 2:11 to mean that Elijah was taken up into the "atmosphere" heaven? Do you think that they went to the paradise side of hades until Jesus resurrection, or just that they are not in heaven at all?

It appears he was taken up in the air, yes...and placed somewhere else. He would have finished his days of life on earth and went to the grave (sheol/hades) to await resurrection.

He still had imputed sin charged to him. Only Christ could forgive this sin to make entrance into the holiest place available to man.
 

Vectorman

Senior Member
It appears he was taken up in the air, yes...and placed somewhere else. He would have finished his days of life on earth and went to the grave (sheol/hades) to await resurrection.

He still had imputed sin charged to him. Only Christ could forgive this sin to make entrance into the holiest place available to man.
When the Bible says that "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as right standing" , I see that as saying that the cross was credited to his account. Therefore I see him and other OT saints as being in heaven with Christ. I think you are saying they are not until the resurrection.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
When the Bible says that "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as right standing" , I see that as saying that the cross was credited to his account. Therefore I see him and other OT saints as being in heaven with Christ. I think you are saying they are not until the resurrection.

So do you think David would be in heaven before the resurrection?
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

To me this says that man does ascend to heaven provided they have some origin in heaven or the heavenly to begin with. And to be able to have his origin in heaven man must be born of Spirit that is by God's loving grace, --by His notice, by His love hovering on a yet fully formed ( due to deformity) man .

It follows that with Jesus who was ever to heaven ascends to heaven, but also those who walked with God were by definition of this relationship ascendants to heaven.

Nicodemus is asking " We know that you are a "Master" acting on God's behalf because of the signs you accomplish which are impossible except God be with you."

Jesus says that in order to understand this, and as to who Jesus might be, other than in the usual way of observing exceptional events, is to look at it from a heavenly perspective or a born again perspective. That is born of the Spirit perspective.

Nicodemus asked what this means, being born again or born from above and having the perspective of the Kingdom of God? Jesus replies that Nicodemus should know this because of his station as a spiritual leader to Isreal, and that the perspective comes from heaven.

And Jesus replies, no one saint, no prophet ever has ascended to heaven from this world, except that the Son of man ( God) who is the foundation, the cause, the life and the light of heaven has come down to free them of the world's captivity and settled them in heaven. And so it is from heaven that they have their spiritual perspective, and yet living in the world, they ascend from it to heaven because they are born of both water or the earth and by the Spirit and the heavenly.

So both Jesus and the saints of all times who are from heaven( born again in the case of the saints) ascend to heaven...from the world. ( What is more born again to a once lost man/woman than walking with God?)

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus says to Nicodemus that God's interventions in this world are only plain and plainly appreciated from the perspective of heaven or everlasting life which should have been Nicodemus's perspective since he was a spiritual leader to the nation! Chances are very good that Nicodemus was no charismatic. :) Or perhaps he was and just on milk.
 
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hobbs27

Senior Member
I see him in the paradise side of Sheol until Christ resurrection, the previous post I meant the final resurrection at Jesus return.
Yes, and with Jesus statement in John 3:13 . I cant percieve any man in heaven at the time of Christs earthly ministry.

Theres also another possibility on the fate of enoch. The scripture says God took him. This can also mean God took his life, possibly while he slept, so he would die a peaceful death. Im not 100% on the how, Im just certain he did not nor could he enter heaven. It was not possible under the old covenant.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Acts 2 29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
As for Elijah.

2Kings 8:16 Now in the fifth year of Joram the son of Ahab king of Israel, Jehoshaphat being then the king of Judah, Jehoram the son of Jehoshaphat king of Judah became king.

2Chronicles 21:12 Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, "Thus says the LORD God of your father David, 'Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah,


He was somewhere on Earth. He wrote this letter after Elisha started acting as prophet.
 
Yes, and with Jesus statement in John 3:13 . I cant percieve any man in heaven at the time of Christs earthly ministry.
When I read this...:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


...and then read this....:

John 3:13
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


....I can't help but think John 3:13 is speaking of a glorified bodily ascension.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Look...even Hebrews 11 says enoch died. After detailing each persons faith it says this:

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
 
Look...even Hebrews 11 says enoch died. After detailing each persons faith it says this:

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
I agree, Enoch died.
I do not agree with your theory that spirits were held in a place called hades.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
I agree, Enoch died.
I do not agree with your theory that spirits were held in a place called hades.
Its not a theory. Its the accepted definition in the Hebrew bible of Sheol. And Hades is the same place. Its where all the dead went both righteous and evil upon death.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sheol/

I agree with the link provided, up to the point it starts trying to redefine Hades as a he11.
 
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gordon 2

Senior Member
Look...even Hebrews 11 says enoch died. After detailing each persons faith it says this:

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
If this is the case with Enoch then why was it mentioned that he was "translated" so that he did not see death? Hum... and if we are pilgrims on the earth... then the promised land ain't Canaan Land and we still need faith....? And some of us will die in faith, but some of us might not?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
If this is the case with Enoch then why was it mentioned that he was "translated" so that he did not see death? Hum... and if we are pilgrims on the earth... then the promised land ain't Canaan Land and we still need faith....? And some of us will die in faith, but some of us might not?


Why was he translated that he did not see death? Could it have been that God moved him out of harms way that he did not die at that moment?


You're absolutely right on your second point. 😀
 
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