Hebrews 11:5

#41
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

To me this says that man does ascend to heaven provided they have some origin in heaven or the heavenly to begin with. And to be able to have his origin in heaven man must be born of Spirit that is by God's loving grace, --by His notice, by His love hovering on a yet fully formed ( due to deformity) man .

It follows that with Jesus who was ever to heaven ascends to heaven, but also those who walked with God were by definition of this relationship ascendants to heaven.

Nicodemus is asking " We know that you are a "Master" acting on God's behalf because of the signs you accomplish which are impossible except God be with you."

Jesus says that in order to understand this, and as to who Jesus might be, other than in the usual way of observing exceptional events, is to look at it from a heavenly perspective or a born again perspective. That is born of the Spirit perspective.

Nicodemus asked what this means, being born again or born from above and having the perspective of the Kingdom of God? Jesus replies that Nicodemus should know this because of his station as a spiritual leader to Isreal, and that the perspective comes from heaven.

And Jesus replies, no one saint, no prophet ever has ascended to heaven from this world, except that the Son of man ( God) who is the foundation, the cause, the life and the light of heaven has come down to free them of the world's captivity and settled them in heaven. And so it is from heaven that they have their spiritual perspective, and yet living in the world, they ascend from it to heaven because they are born of both water or the earth and by the Spirit and the heavenly.

So both Jesus and the saints of all times who are from heaven( born again in the case of the saints) ascend to heaven...from the world. ( What is more born again to a once lost man/woman than walking with God?)

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus says to Nicodemus that God's interventions in this world are only plain and plainly appreciated from the perspective of heaven or everlasting life which should have been Nicodemus's perspective since he was a spiritual leader to the nation! Chances are very good that Nicodemus was no charismatic. :) Or perhaps he was and just on milk.
Gordon, you will like the link I provided above. It shows that St. Augustine tracks along nicely with your exegesis.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#42
"we" is meaning every individual case collectively as a group.
I think they are saying they are at home in the body of moses. Old covenant people of God are called the body of moses in Jude 9. What makes them the body of moses? Because as Paul told these brethren earlier in his first letter to the Corinthians, they were baptized into Moses 1Corinthians 10:2, just as Christians were baptized into Christ and are therefore correspondingly called the body of Christ.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#43
So Paul and his Jewish Christian brethren werent only confident in their walk, but they were even pleased that they were in essence walking out of the body of death(moses) and into the body of life(Jesus).
 
#44
I think they are saying they are at home in the body of moses. Old covenant people of God are called the body of moses in Jude 9. What makes them the body of moses? Because as Paul told these brethren earlier in his first letter to the Corinthians, they were baptized into Moses 1Corinthians 10:2, just as Christians were baptized into Christ and are therefore correspondingly called the body of Christ.
This is where you and I really disagree. I say the Corinthian church was under the new covenant. I also say that Paul is simply speaking of physical death, as shown by the previous context.

But, back to the subject of Abraham's bosom. Isn't it plain to see that the parable is using figurative events and subjects to convey a literal meaning? Or do you actually believe the spirits of the wicked speak to the spirits of the just? Do they beg to have their tongues cooled off too? Seriously?

No.
It's a parable.
With hypothetical elements. Not real ones.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#45
This is where you and I really disagree. I say the Corinthian church was under the new covenant. I also say that Paul is simply speaking of physical death, as shown by the previous context.

But, back to the subject of Abraham's bosom. Isn't it plain to see that the parable is using figurative events and subjects to convey a literal meaning? Or do you actually believe the spirits of the wicked speak to the spirits of the just? Do they beg to have their tongues cooled off too? Seriously?

No.
It's a parable.
With hypothetical elements. Not real ones.

Because its a parable doesnt mean its all made up. Maybe there was no Lazarus and rich man, maybe those that were in torments didnt call out for those in Abrahams bosom. But I believe there was indeed a place, and I think the Jews Jesus was speaking to also believed in such a place. No other parable is accused of being so dramatic as this one and it must be because it doesnt fit in folks presupposed positions.
 

Vectorman

Senior Member
#46
But I believe there was indeed a place, and I think the Jews Jesus was speaking to also believed in such a place.
This is my position also, too many things that I read seem to point to it. The parable. Jesus telling the thief that "today" you will be with me in paradise. David speaking about you did not leave my soul in Hades. And others.

I believe that after Jesus resurrection and ascension into heaven, these old testament saints went with Him into heaven. We also go there(soul into heaven) after physical death, we will all be resurrected (body) at the rapture or second coming. (another discussion)
 
#47
I think the Jews Jesus was speaking to also believed in such a place.
Yes, some of them did; it was taught by the Pharisees along with all the other extra scriptural things they taught. And that is probably the reason it was included in the parable. Not to describe something that is real, but because those with eyes and ears would see through it, and those without eyes and ears would have a nice story.

The Purpose of the Parables
Mat 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'"You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive."
15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#48
We also go there(soul into heaven) after physical death, we will all be resurrected (body) at the rapture or second coming. (another discussion)
Yes it is, and look forward to it.:biggrin3:
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#49
Yes, some of them did; it was taught by the Pharisees along with all the other extra scriptural things they taught. And that is probably the reason it was included in the parable. Not to describe something that is real, but because those with eyes and ears would see through it,
The Sadducee didnt believe in an afterlife or resurrection. Theres a lot of biblical evidence of Sheol...where was Samuel when he was raised from his rest? I see Jonah being cast overboard and swallowed by a great fish as a symbolic burial and entry into hades. Theres lots more, but I think the Pharisee were the more biblical of the sects.....except for maybe the essene which we have little knowledge of.
 
#50
John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Matthew 23:39
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'
 
#51
>> Readers should go back to my post for the scriptural support on parables<<

The Sadducee didnt believe in an afterlife or resurrection.
relevance?

Theres a lot of biblical evidence of Sheol...where was Samuel when he was raised from his rest? I see Jonah being cast overboard and swallowed by a great fish as a symbolic burial and entry into hades. Theres lots more,
Using possible inference from one passage in an attempt to clarify a perceived implication in another is not sound exegesis.

but I think the Pharisee were the more biblical of the sects.....except for maybe the essene which we have little knowledge of.
The heretical teaching of the Pharisees cannot be the ground for doctrine.
relevance?
 
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hobbs27

Senior Member
#52
>> Readers should go back to my post for the scriptural support on parables<<



relevance?



Using possible inference from one passage in an attempt to clarify a perceived implication in another is not sound exegesis.



The heretical teaching of the Pharisees cannot be the ground for doctrine.
relevance?
Relevance? Just making conversation, being friendly.
 
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hobbs27

Senior Member
#54
This is where you and I really disagree. I say the Corinthian church was under the new covenant. I also say that Paul is simply speaking of physical death, as shown by the previous context.

But, back to the subject of Abraham's bosom. Isn't it plain to see that the parable is using figurative events and subjects to convey a literal meaning? Or do you actually believe the spirits of the wicked speak to the spirits of the just? Do they beg to have their tongues cooled off too? Seriously?

No.
It's a parable.
With hypothetical elements. Not real ones.

I know we disagree but is it ok if I challenge you on your beliefs? I for one appreciate the challenges, and if its not something Im very familiar with I consider them in earnest.

Heres my question to you, if Jesus was in heaven and came down to join His body on the third day. Why when we examine the Greek text of 1Corinthians 15:12 it says that if Christ is preached, that OUT FROM THE DEAD He has risen. ? http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-12.htm

Also the same Greek text in 1Corinthians 15:20... And now , Christ has risen OUT FROM THE DEAD. http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-20.htm

Does it make any sense at all that He and all the old covenant saints were in heaven...but He was raised out from the dead?
It does to me only when you consider the dead were in Hades.
 
#55
I know we disagree but is it ok if I challenge you on your beliefs? I for one appreciate the challenges, and if its not something Im very familiar with I consider them in earnest.

Heres my question to you, if Jesus was in heaven and came down to join His body on the third day. Why when we examine the Greek text of 1Corinthians 15:12 it says that if Christ is preached, that OUT FROM THE DEAD He has risen. ? http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-12.htm

Also the same Greek text in 1Corinthians 15:20... And now , Christ has risen OUT FROM THE DEAD. http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-20.htm

Does it make any sense at all that He and all the old covenant saints were in heaven...but He was raised out from the dead?
It does to me only when you consider the dead were in Hades.
That was my question earlier. Did Jesus really die? Was he laying in the ground dead for three days? Define death, was his soul sleeping? If his soul was somewhere else other than the grave, was he still dead? What if his soul was in Paradise but not Heaven, is that still death?

Concerning 1 Corinthians 15:12, does it matter whether Jesus' soul was in Paradise or Heaven if it says he was "raised out from the dead?"
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#56
Concerning 1 Corinthians 15:12, does it matter whether Jesus' soul was in Paradise or Heaven if it says he was "raised out from the dead?"
If you're in the presence of God are you dead? Is heaven an abode for the dead?

I dont think so , do you?
 
#57
I know we disagree but is it ok if I challenge you on your beliefs? I for one appreciate the challenges, and if its not something Im very familiar with I consider them in earnest.

Heres my question to you, if Jesus was in heaven and came down to join His body on the third day. Why when we examine the Greek text of 1Corinthians 15:12 it says that if Christ is preached, that OUT FROM THE DEAD He has risen. ? http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-12.htm

Also the same Greek text in 1Corinthians 15:20... And now , Christ has risen OUT FROM THE DEAD. http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-20.htm

Does it make any sense at all that He and all the old covenant saints were in heaven...but He was raised out from the dead?
It does to me only when you consider the dead were in Hades.
It makes perfect sense that Jesus' spirit was reunited with His body on the third day. It was at this moment when "He was raised out from the dead"(physical resurrection). All the other dead bodies remained in their graves.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#58
It makes perfect sense that Jesus' spirit was reunited with His body on the third day. It was at this moment when "He was raised out from the dead"(physical resurrection). All the other dead bodies remained in their graves.
So was He His body or was He His spirit?
 
#60
Both.
His spirit and His body came out of the tomb together.
What is your definition of death in relation to the death Jesus took on for us? Is death defined as only physical? If so, why isn't life?
Eternal death vs everlasting life? Are those terms describing physical life and death only?
 
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