Hebrews 9:16 Redeemed from the transgressions under first covenant....

[StriperAddict]

Is our God "served with human hands, as if He needed anything?"
(For starts, google bible gateway on that, for a good read and meditation)

As far as the Indwelling Christ ... That puts the burden on us to be humbly dependent on His Spirit Life within, and because He is the (Life giving, fruit producing) VINE ... we who are branches can share the fruit of that union - not produce it. Yep, gotta swallow some old beliefs and the pride with that. And it puts the burden on Christ to be both "author and the finisher" of our faith. Actually it's no burden, since it was His work, not ours.

Note those 9 incredible delicacies ( love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control ) ... are they called the fruit of our flesh effort, or a result of our union in the Giver of Life? And "against such things there is no law."

I am not trying to be clever here. The church is suffering under the weight of a grace-less Gospel, which is nothing less than a Christ-less Gospel, because it has abandoned the Spirit Life (and the fruit that comes from it) for the showy testimony of self-sufficiency under the heavy condemning hand of moral-ism and ... it excludes what is life, rather, who is Life and who motivates us - yes, from within.

We are slaves of Righteousness because the Lord IS our righteousness (and not by our behavior), and by grace thru faith we reflect that. We often stumble, have a myriad of weakness and old beliefs that must be offered up to God ... not for the purpose of re-restoring union, but because we ARE in union, and we are growing up to believe what God Himself says about that.

Any other (non-union) identity of the believer in Jesus will have us never see clearly that the old yoke is GONE. We will miss "the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" which sets us free from the law of sin and death. That's the true "easy" yoke and burden of the Lord. Sidebar ... NO, I am not saying life in a fallen world is easy, but your completeness IN Christ is what comes without the old burden of striving.
If we continue in that striving we will be well content, and miserable, with our burden of performance, and take eyes off the One who performed perfectly on our behalf.

What to some is "striving to please" ... is to others ... being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Knowing His indwelling Life is about an enJOYment of reflecting His life within. Is our God "served with human hands, as if He needed anything?
or ...
is the Joy of the Lord by way of a finished work, our very life and strength?

Joy .... hmmm, that's worth reflecting, yes?

- Walter

 

[StriperAddict]

Thanks for all your sharing. I think that the provision for the forgiving of sin and the removall of guilt and shame in our present covenant is due to the Church, and its elders as mediators commissioned by our Mediator in Heaven. I cannot agree with Harris that "New Covenant believers have become the perfect dwelling place of God." I think that it is clear that the perfect dwelling place of God is where Jesus is and that place is in heaven. When we say Christ in us we have to remember that Jesus is logos, what in english is writ as "the word". The full spirit and power of God is not in us only as to perfection, because Jesus and the Father are in heaven or also outside of the Spirit in us.

I think it is error to claim that even the elect are the perfect dwelling place of God, by simple observation this can't be. I can't find in myself or within any saint or even within the body that from any of these that Jesus will appear to his second coming. Jesus will come to us from the "clouds", Jesus will return from out-there, not from within.

If the church elders are now the "mediator" then yes, we must live by laws and expectations and principles. Yet God made each one in Christ ... competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life (2Cor3:6). Wow. We will either abandon that in favor of inflicting rules, or we humbly accept our life as those who by His grace reflect this new covenant ... the one where the power of sin has been crucified with Christ - in a crucifixion and resurrection that included YOU in the person and perfect work of Christ. (For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace! Rom 6:14).

Sorry, I do not believe in a Gospel that doesn't have Christ within, since the scriptures share this so clearly. It is the awesome gift of God ... that His presence and person "will never leave us nor forsake us". Yes, in this body we groan for that far country, the heaven our earthly eyes do not see clearly. All the more reason for our Lord who delights IN us ... to show forth to the world His life thru us, in an incredible union. THAT is His body in action, all with differing gifts, complementing each pot of clay as that which is filled with everlasting life.

Consider: "Christ in you, the hope of glory" - I didn't make that one up either, honest!
We have a rest in getting to know the Christ within, and that will produce fruit in due season. Don't stress over that ... in Him Live, move and have your being, from a place of trust and rest.

Peace.

- W

 

[gordon 2]

John 15:4 Remain in Me, and I will remain in you.Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. 5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.


I understand that Christ in me is dependent of me remaining in Christ. The tango, the dance is for two. " ... neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."

We speak of Christ within... as the source of our rest and that our focus should be there, yet Christ says that's fine and good, but you need to remain in me.

So why do I perhaps insist on the need-requirement of remaining in Christ as my rest and you insist on the need of getting to know Christ within? Please explain this Christ within to me?


I trust that we are born again, and that Jesus has made his presence manifest to us. I trust that you are instructed ( thought) by the Holy Spirit to understand as you do, yet I trust in the Holy Spirit also and my understanding seems different than yours. Are there many rooms in our new covenant? I trust we are not under the laws of Gentiles or the law the Hebrews, that we are of the law of life in Christ. In these do you mistrust and trust? Is there more? or less? What accounts for our different focus and understanding?

I ask in loving fellowship ( companionship) .

 

[Israel]

And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose ****ation is just.


Obviously Paul experienced being misunderstood. And to such extent he called it slander. I don't think he ever got used to it, but am also persuaded it became such a common experience to him it became part of his expectation. Preaching and teaching from the place where he saw all issues of conflict resolved in and through only through Jesus Christ; even of how the God who has shown such great love to man in providing His own Lamb for redemption nevertheless remains the God with right to judge the world.

Paul found his words easily twisted. Peter understood this too in reference to Paul. Even admitting there are many things in them (his letters) hard to understand. But better to admit to not understanding than to enter into a wrestling match over them, presuming one knows what Paul is saying and from there (in that misinterpretation informed of presumption) to cast slander. Being persuaded that here Paul came to understand his calling (along with his brothers also so called) he said

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Peter also took up this understanding of being a spectacle even to angels

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Angels with no fleshly lusts to consider, no advantage that might even be taken by these to a form of hindrance, no less require understanding and desire it. Being spiritual in nature does not immediately inform all the knowing. All in Christ are spiritual in nature, none having more nor less of spirituality. All are equal in that matter, without contradiction. Nevertheless, it will only be the unspiritual who deny there is a growth intended, purposed, ordained. Not wanting to admit to it is as far from denying it as light is from darkness. There is great difference there. Life and death, in truth. Children may not like going to school, and even admit it, but that is not the same as refusal to go. Or reviling the (a) teacher.

And Paul, of all the apostles of whom we have on record, was entirely without pulling of any punches that this school, this discipline we have entered and are to be submitted to has in it elements (ordained to learning of Christ) that are not only hard...but totally impossible to the natural man. No natural man can "stand up" under this discipline...nor is intended to. It breaks all natural strength, resolve, even greatest of religious pieties "brought in" (appearing at first of some virtue and value)...but not to the end of loss...but all of gain.

"BUT whatever things were of profit to me..." (to my self approval)

He speaks quite plainly of things "gone through"...even with some embarrassment that they need to enumerated again to those whom, he saw quite plainly, considered themselves already full. How did he know this? In their ease of putting aside further instruction. And so much so that they now considered themselves adequate to choose their own schooling "I will go to school of Paul" "and I to Apollos" and, "I to Cephas". Some ready to revile (a) teacher..."yeah, his letters seem weighty, but his presence is quite weak". How clever we may become at insult. In give and taking away at the same time.

Yet, he remained undeterred...if only, if only, if only...some, any...even one, might begin to understand his willingness to appear weak amongst them...that they might begin to understand the mystery of Christ.

And, as always, I state only the obvious.


Ralph, if you are listening...and still in the body, your presence is requested. Make full proof of your ministry. For your words have reached even to the GON board. And to wherever a man touches with intent, he makes himself responsible to for response.


(Sent in e-mail to RHM)

 

[gordon 2]

Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Yes brother. To babes I would point them to the cross. But what of prophet Jonah? And Miracle worker Jesus? The gift of the Holy Spirit? Our church? Our lives in Him? His life in us? Love? The way the world loves with hate, and the way of love itself? The power and the glory of God? The second coming? Eternal life? Our rest? The bible? Isaiah? James? etc.... the Southern Baptist convention and the Greek Orthodox Church. ETc....

 

[Israel]

Yes brother. To babes I would point them to the cross. But what of prophet Jonah? And Miracle worker Jesus? The gift of the Holy Spirit? Our church? Our lives in Him? His life in us? Love? The way the world loves with hate, and the way of love itself? The power and the glory of God? The second coming? Eternal life? Our rest? The bible? Isaiah? James? etc.... the Southern Baptist convention and the Greek Orthodox Church. ETc....

Is it not all ministered in that? From the One who came for that specific purpose, now working in those, (and by the grace of God, if any may be found) through those who hold only to Him...and Him as that One?

What the cross is made master of adequately ministers what must be dealt to what it is made master of, and makes the way for what may now be taught of the Master.

 

[welderguy]

[QUOTE="gordon 2, post: 11866580, member:
I understand that Christ in me is dependent of me remaining in Christ. The tango, the dance is for two. " ... neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."

We speak of Christ within... as the source of our rest and that our focus should be there, yet Christ says that's fine and good, but you need to remain in me./QUOTE]




He works it IN, so we can work it OUT.
He takes care of the IN part.
If He has worked within you, then you are sealed.(locked in)

And consider this in Ephesians:

"And hath raised us up together, and MADE us sit together in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus:"

There's no decision here on our part whether to sit or not sit. If you are in Christ, you're sitting.

 

[StriperAddict]

Right now I abide, aka remain in ... the state of Georgia. I don't "try" to abide here, and no one asks me "are you sure you're abiding in GA?" when they may witness something of my ol Yankee speech or mannerisms.
Chuckle Yes! But don't be fooled about just how sealed you are, and have become, in the state ... of heaven.

Perhaps how you got here is worth a look. Nails, cross, resurrection ... and an agreement between two parties we weren't in on. Ouch! But it's ok, when God couldn't swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself ... and our desperate cry was answered.

He delivered us from the kingdom of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of his beloved Son. Wow!

Scripture is clear that when we have those stumblings and sin struggles that we have forgotten our purification from our former sins. Imagine that. Having problems with sin or the motivation of love is not a "me doing the best I can problem", but it is a remembrance problem. God is good with us right now because he is the one who has purified us, not we ourselves. Yes very humbling, but why on Earth do we want the burden to have a life that matches His ... in some form of self perfection?

Yet silly us, we bring out the very thing that was nailed to the cross, the law rulebook, when the One from the inside might take us to ... and thru ... our union, from which we entered, and stay, by Another's faithfulness.

Yes, for such a time as the ravages of sin having a hay day. There is no victory over such behavior in thinking we have left our state. It's our thinking in these dark times that must be reminded and renewed in the truth of who is living on the inside, and is delighted to live in and through Us by grace through faith!

Christ has delivered us from our old state.
An old Toyota Camry got me to Georgia.
A crucifixion and a resurrection got me and keeps me ... in His presence forever.
Sans right thinking at times.
He's good, in me.
And He's good in, thru and with you brethren. Don't "forget" that.

 

[gordon 2]

Is it not all ministered in that? From the One who came for that specific purpose, now working in those, (and by the grace of God, if any may be found) through those who hold only to Him...and Him as that One?

What the cross is made master of adequately ministers what must be dealt to what it is made master of, and makes the way for what may now be taught of the Master.

Well it would be nice if all was ministered in it. It would mean that the Holy Spirit would teach on it, but did not Jesus say that the "comforter" would also teach on what he said? Like the kingdom principles for example.... and more...?

I think it was the essential to Paul's ministry to the Gentiles Christ crucified-- that is all he needed. But after they were Christians there was more than the cross and Christ on it-- as is evident in his letters to the churches.

As a jew Paul was not saved for the cross I could argue. Paul was saved because Christ arrested Paul as Paul was on a mission to persecute Christians. It was for him akin to what we might call a born again experience for many today. But to the gentiles the cross and the resurrection must of pierced their consciousness concerning the Divine, especially a Divine that through the cross was willing to adopt them as sons and spiritually equal to any man since the very first man!

I could be argued that all is ministered in many things that was ushered by Jesus' commissions and commands. For example Catholics have ever claimed that all is ministed in the Eucharist..., some might say all is ministered in scripture, and no more! etc...

 

[gordon 2]

Right now I abide, aka remain in ... the state of Georgia. I don't "try" to abide here, and no one asks me "are you sure you're abiding in GA?" when they may witness something of my ol Yankee speech or mannerisms.
Chuckle Yes! But don't be fooled about just how sealed you are, and have become, in the state ... of heaven.

Perhaps how you got here is worth a look. Nails, cross, resurrection ... and an agreement between two parties we weren't in on. Ouch! But it's ok, when God couldn't swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself ... and our desperate cry was answered.

He delivered us from the kingdom of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of his beloved Son. Wow!

Scripture is clear that when we have those stumblings and sin struggles that we have forgotten our purification from our former sins. Imagine that. Having problems with sin or the motivation of love is not a "me doing the best I can problem", but it is a remembrance problem. God is good with us right now because he is the one who has purified us, not we ourselves. Yes very humbling, but why on Earth do we want the burden to have a life that matches His ... in some form of self perfection?

Yet silly us, we bring out the very thing that was nailed to the cross, the law rulebook, when the One from the inside might take us to ... and thru ... our union, from which we entered, and stay, by Another's faithfulness.

Yes, for such a time as the ravages of sin having a hay day. There is no victory over such behavior in thinking we have left our state. It's our thinking in these dark times that must be reminded and renewed in the truth of who is living on the inside, and is delighted to live in and through Us by grace through faith!

Christ has delivered us from our old state.
An old Toyota Camry got me to Georgia.
A crucifixion and a resurrection got me and keeps me ... in His presence forever.
Sans right thinking at times.
He's good, in me.
And He's good in, thru and with you brethren. Don't "forget" that.

I think you are right. And I think you are... not right. : ) You are half right and not totally incorrect.

I think that grieving the Holy Spirit or our relationship with God is possible and it is not due a thinking problem. It might be due to a not thinking problem. It might be due to a drinking problem, or a money problem, sloth and laziness problem, a theft problem, a hate problem, an adultery problem, a murder problem, a wife-husband problem, an I need more things problem, a sexuality problem, an I can't be myself problem problem, I'm a nobody and I want to be a somebody problem, a love problem, an I'm especially weak regards peer pressure problem, a guilt problem, an I'm with the wrong people problem, the grass is greener on the other side problem, my spouse can't be the one I married problem, I've got an anger problem, money problems, problem, I'm pregnant and I'm fourteen problem, I'm terrible lonely problem, I've got a social ignorance problem... I've got an honesty problem, etc...

Now I think I might understand why you are right... Having had the personal witness of Jesus is not an easy thing to deny and especially that from this meeting (like the short man who climbed a tree to see Jesus go by, the tax collector that was changed in affect overnight as if he had received a new personality...) it is difficult to deny the love that a personal witness of Jesus gives a person. The love of God within is limitless... and a whole lot of other adjectives besides...! It it remarkable how a person can be healed this way, and how a life direction can change or be magnified. So the love of God within is Powerful in this way... and I'm sure in many other ways....

Or I could say, I forget that I am in Christ, grafted in.

Now that I'm sealed... well that will take a bit of prayers for me... even Paul checked himself... which I understand was as to right relationship with God. And we have a race to run, and training to do... etc...


Are there transgressions to our covenant? Can we sin with no consequences to our relationship with God? If we can sin and do sin knowing Jesus is remedy "Christ in us" and how we think about Christ in us remedy and correcting thinking about this will make it all ok? Then sin is made of no effect... so we can just sin as long as we know we are sealed. ( I think Jude and others tried to tackle this.)

I'm dense bros. tell me more. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you? The problems of the five churches in Revelations was a thinking problem of its members about Christ within?

 

[gordon 2]

Hosea 6:6
6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Is our Father's mercy emotional or intellectual?

Jeremiah 31: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Inward parts? Is our "inward parts" informed by intellectual discernment?

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

-----------------

It seems to me that we have to check our religious traditions and the way provides for informing.

When our preachers teach, when we study, we do not say it is man teaching man otherwise our faith would be but philosophy.

It seems to me that the heart of man, or his inward parts, can be tickled only by intellectually and emotionally understanding Christian spiritual truth. That is to say that the mystical and intellectual experiences available in the religious experience can overwhelm us to understanding that some of God's truth is all His truth.

In our Christian world we have the religious traditions that depends on an intellectual apprehension of God's Grace and other religious traditions that depend on the emotional apprehension of God's Grace. These are both two good traditions, but as man is not a creature of moderation, both these traditions can be pushed to excess so that the design God intended for them is made to miss the mark.

I think that this is our differences. 1) We are not all from the same religious traditions as to the building up of the body.2) We see the excesses of our traditions and judge the whole trough them, especially that of our opposites.

" I will put my law in their inward parts".

I think that the reformation was an attempt to correct a religious tradition that had run away from God's laws set "into our inward parts" by the exaggeration of its commissions which ended up sometimes by doing evil instead of being just.

On the other hand, I think the reformers and their descendants ended up with exaggeration of the intellectual apprehension of God's Grace. I am not exaggerating that the reformers have gleaned for themselves from an intellectual understand derived from scripture rocks and verse sufficient to built themselves mountains.

I have to ask what was God's aim with regards to making a man we call Christian? It is true that it is our inward parts the make us Christians, or a change from the heart of a gentile or a jew to a heart with a God's design restoration.

To this restoration God cautions us that we are not of those that "draw back unto perdition". God did save the Hebrews from captivity, but they drew back due sin and some suffered death. Yet in our covenant we have the means of not drawing back even thought we sin.

I contend that a Christian who sins must make a house cleaning, must admit his sin to himself/herself and to our Lord, or confess it. The manner in which we do this is according to our traditions. Some will seek consolations via the mind, some via the emotions. As long as they are not exaggerated I think there is not worry to the hardening of hearts and minds. But I think our history show the world judges Christians as hard hearted with valid reasons. And I don't think or have in my heart that this is what God intended. We may boast of our witness... but would the angels? and the first saints?

It is my experience that love is all what Paul said it was and that although I can bow my intellect on it cannot inform me on or of God's love as the day touched me and I was filled emotionally as if I was a new person.


"So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask theFather in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.…"

Therefore let us love one another in fellowship...knowing that even Christians are not immune to exaggeration and excess and sometimes in excess to the point of corrupting God's design for Christians.

It is my personal experience in Christ that God changed my heart and that my heart, this inward part inform my mind. I do not discount that some have it that through the mind the heart was formed.

There is provision in Christianity so that Christians don't suffer the faith of the Hebrew who drew back to perdition. I don't understand that this provision is due to some sealing in us. I think this is an exaggeration of the intellect. I think that the provision is our confession to our priest Jesus---who is God, judge of the heart.


"But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."


So which is first, the heart or the intellect? When we walk with God, as Christians, do we seek the counsels of God's intellect or of his heart? Which hit's home best? What is religious experience? When is it religious and it is meant to be? Is the religious experience mystical, intellectual, both, somethings else?

For me what a struggle it was for my intellect before my heart was changed. But the way to a man's heart God knows we are not all the same and that we are all from somewhere and different traditions.

 

[Israel]

My best understanding of y'all with none coming behind in anything, (and that is every contributor to this forum) is with the conviction that to each is given the desire to please God. And, even if this is not in and of itself through all always manifest (here I can only place my name as chief offender) I am still convinced of the conviction "it is right to seek God's pleasure". (On this list I also no less include Ralph, and have from the first words of his to which I was introduced)

Some may say, "so what?...even the thief may know it is right to not steal, and yet do so." And thief I am persuaded, is not a bad example...for there may be (as I have surely seen of myself) a tendency to "steal for ones's self". (Would it be any help at all here to consider Jesus' words "All who have come before me are thieves and robbers"?)

I am wearing my Captain Obvious uniform. Each of us in some way, (in my best understanding) sees Jesus Christ as the fullness of God dwelling in bodily in form. I speak of those who readily confess this. Jesus Christ is of God, and all of God given to man to know. In Him...is the knowledge of God. This no less includes the knowledge of all of God's pleasure, or in other terms...all that pleases God. And to those so convinced, there is a conviction that Jesus' knowing is never apart from Jesus' doing. He is not one merely telling what pleases God His Father, but always showing that same pleasing. Jesus is no hypocrite.

In whatever measure this union of knowing and doing by the compelling of (and I am convinced...we must be convinced) love appears to us as burden, it is precisely because we are experiencing love as a burden. But, who would fault any man for that? But, who would also deny all the weight of (that) love in Christ is demonstrated without complaint, without shirking, without any form of anything that is in contradiction to "follow me to all the glory that is Glory". No apologies, no compromise, no "I'm sorry it has to be this way...but...". Or, "I'm sorry I have to tell you this...but..." None, at all.

But He also knows this, deeper than any man knows, has known, or will know (for none has entered into man, and into the being of man, than Jesus Christ) man does not like, no, not at all, and resists the being "told how things are". Children have their own form of resistance expressed in many "whys?"...(Why are matches off limits?) but men? What considers itself man, and as having grown to such, by that conviction, is all about "I know how things are"...this is itself what makes me man and not child.

Children though, ask in honesty the more fundamental question in all their motive of expression of "why"..."Why should my will be crossed in anything?" Why cannot I not do all I am able to do? I can reach the stoves knobs..."why" shall I not turn them at will? (No man tells a crawling infant "don't play with matches, don't play with the stove")


Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Children. Men. The man who knew, knows, has always known the deepest of being man (and all and everything ever given to pertain to him) stretched forth his hands to be carried by another to the "where He would not go". Fully grown. Carried.

I am persuaded no man, nor any man amongst us can over consider this:

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:

Shall I write a book? It's there...it's all right there. Can I explain it? Vain and silly...man, I am. Stupid man, foolish man, ridiculous man...abysmally ignorant man, writer of all words falling short.

How can any man explain? How much has been written...and spoken...and will yet?
How that in full agreement of Father, Son, and Spirit such weakness is allowed for man to see? (Can he see it?) Not hidden? Not sought to be covered nor cleverly omitted? Full disclosure. Fullest disclosure...only true disclosure...

A child will ask why? Why are things the way...you say, the way you show? The man...the man may say "Oh, I get it, I get it very well, who would "want this"? And think his knowing is full. Manly.

But the child will get answer, the man will not. For the manly can never get from there to what follows:

nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

The honest "why?" so far outstrips the "I get it, I get why no man would..."

Yeah. That's me. "I get that part".

But why? Why Father...allow your Son's weakness...exposed? Why? Recorded? Why? Made so plain...why?

Manly cannot know. Man can. Man can when He is so provoked even past all by being told "how things are" he cannot help but be made childlike...in "why"?

What is the only thing working there? Is it a burden? Is it? Hard? Unbearably...hard to bear? Is it...burden? How do you "pass up" 12 legions of angels that are your right to summon with none able to accuse of "falling short" for the Father Himself would give them? And...why? Why...show all your weakness...when magnificent strength is at your fingertips and lips...to show?

nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Every mystery finds light, every explanation to the most profound depths of doctrine and doctrines...every epistle's greatest mystery laid bare, every prophesy and utterance...

The man who wrote


For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Learned. How this was all of entrance for him, and to him. And having entered, by a determination (not his own) could testify of a man who saw such things...it was not even lawful...to utter.

But, what he did utter...we have in part.

I am convinced he was so pressed to "why"...even as by goads unbearable in prodding..."why would Messiah (of whom I thought I once knew as to nature)...not only allow...but accept, and embrace...this?"

Why would show of such weakness toward the will of another work...anything?
Who is at work in Him?

For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.


and immediately following


Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

God forbid!

I find men here troubled by weakness, weakness in understanding, weakness when considering their own obedience, weakness when confronting their own limits, weakness...when confronting their own faults, faithfulness...and yes...even sin.

And this testifies (to me, if no other) the presence of the one made weak...for our sakes. God forbid I despise weakness...

And God help me (of all men most proud and "manly" to myself)...when I despise its revelation in me.

This guy! Yeah...this guy!

Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.


Willing to appear reprobate...that others be approved.


"He who knew no sin was made to be..."

 

[gordon 2]

Isreal... we are long winded. It is your's a second wind?

Your weakness ideas are very touching to my stride. I just might have a thorn there.
I'm reminded of the scene in Forest Gump where he stops running... perhaps...Thanks.

 

[StriperAddict]

Gordon, Israel, I've stopped running too. For years I've made the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ a complex thing. My whole attempt here is to remind ourselves of unending and undying love. The true inner motivation from One alive from death, sharing His Love, life nd presence so we can find joy in reflecting that inner Life as well.

Are there depths we take to such kindness, especially in our weakness? Always. Yet my pride and anger issues, citing just a few, all start with some belief not grounded. That then becomes the awesome journey in discovering what and why that old stinkin thinkin started out in the first place. But it's not a self abusing track, because the One who loves me/us fully is always in the thought renewal business. Right thinking will come, for me and my stubbornness it still takes time.

But I'm here to share the impact of the best news and gift there is, no strings attached, and be settled in the rest of Christ, which, paradoxically produces fruit. I think He's pretty neat in doing that. Hmmm, no longer children, tossed with so many winds of distracting dissertations, but simple, child-like faith.

That's my final here too.
Peace

 

[Spineyman]

If Matt Slick was not in the ministry, I suspect he would be a lawyer. He has that kind of argumentative temperament... that would distract a jury to side for his client. I have talked to Matt Slick. Unlike Harris, Matt Slick would come on here if he was asked to-- Matt Slick is into his calling.

Matt's conclusion here is too quick witted for me to accept. Matt is a bible kind of guy... but here he does not use the bible to back his argument, but rather what "some say" regards the nature of God.

Some issues come to mind in the statement " all sins that we commit are known by God." Personally I hope God is a person of his word and that He forgets. But besides this...I worry that since our God is said to be of a state of time which is past, present and future... that our sins are forgiven due the cross. I think this is possibly at least part of the error that the epistle of Jude points to.... where since sin is forgiven some think it is part of our life to accept the exception of some sins and justify them because we live within the walls of a fallen world... we yet remain sinners natural, though we are saved from this nature... Maybe...

Math Slick is not only slick, he is quick.

This is the instruction Jude gives regards saints vs sinners:

22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.[f]

If God has forgiven sin past, present and future due the cross... why would we in our present covenant be thought mercy and to hate sin as Paul practiced this within the body of believers? Why would we need to confess our sins to one another as James teaches?

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27

James seems to believe or understand that we as Christians need religion to " keep oneself from being polluted by the world." As Christians we are not immune to being polluted by the world, I think this is his suggestion. How can and why would religion do this and especially why when Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is said to cover our sins past, present and future?

We are told to rightly divide the Word of Truth in God's Word, so then it must be possible to be in error in doing so also. He studies and gets to the root when he discusses his findings. It is also evident that there are many liberal churches today that do not do that. It also means that even though our sins might be covered and forgotten, that there are still consequences for our actions. We are not freed from the penalty of that sin.

 

[Israel]

Gordon, Israel, I've stopped running too. For years I've made the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ a complex thing. My whole attempt here is to remind ourselves of unending and undying love. The true inner motivation from One alive from death, sharing His Love, life nd presence so we can find joy in reflecting that inner Life as well.

Are there depths we take to such kindness, especially in our weakness? Always. Yet my pride and anger issues, citing just a few, all start with some belief not grounded. That then becomes the awesome journey in discovering what and why that old stinkin thinkin started out in the first place. But it's not a self abusing track, because the One who loves me/us fully is always in the thought renewal business. Right thinking will come, for me and my stubbornness it still takes time.

But I'm here to share the impact of the best news and gift there is, no strings attached, and be settled in the rest of Christ, which, paradoxically produces fruit. I think He's pretty neat in doing that. Hmmm, no longer children, tossed with so many winds of distracting dissertations, but simple, child-like faith.

That's my final here too.
Peace

Are there depths we take to such kindness, especially in our weakness? Always. Yet my pride and anger issues, citing just a few, all start with some belief not grounded. That then becomes the awesome journey in discovering what and why that old stinkin thinkin started out in the first place.

May I say "amen"?

Being the smartest man in the world is hard work. No less is being the founder of, and apostle/prophet/evangelist/pastor/teacher to, the First Church of Martha. (From which all the practices of Marthianity spring) I know not only what I should be doing...but others as well. (It's tough being chosen!)

Being a "gift" to the world is indeed hard work...but...someone's gotta do it. I'll tell you, it's like herding cats. But it's so painfully obvious no one else sees just how much herding they need, this sight must be Divine in origin! It's a very good thing that at least I know what men should be doing, so I can help.

 

[gordon 2]

I suppose that Paul was a kind of Mary in the beginning for a bit, and then switched to being a Martha? Did Paul say some should model on him?

I was reading on a Native American legend last evening. It was that brothers had their hunting bows broken by a trickster so that they could not hunt anymore. The trickster's name was Badger. Badger was a shape changer and lived in the heavens with the stars and could live on earth as well.

The boys complained to the Great Bird that Badger was hiding in heaven and that he had broken their bows so that they could not hunt no more. The Great Bird went in the the Bear Constellation . Finding Badger he carried Badger in his beak until it was safe to drop him back to earth. Dropped back to earth Badger repaired the boys' bows and so they could hunt again.