How Did We Come to Exist?

Tim L

Senior Member
Thread starter #1
A good friend of mine is now agnostic, former athiest; prior to that former Baptist; now she just doesn't know and this is why.......How did/could we and all around us come to exist without some sort of higher inteligence; some unexplainable higher power..for a moment don't think in terms of a God, a particular religon, or even a higher form of being and try to overgone the urge to simply come back with what created God, if you do your missing the point......

Logic tells us that everything has a beginning.....no matter how far we go back in any situation, scenrio, or context, there is a beginning....Now even if you go back to the big bang; that moment before the tremendous explosion of energy; what created the very elements that set the ball in motion? Something had to be present for the big bang to have ocurred in the first place....Logic tells us that energy and mass cannot just suddenly come to exist from nothing... It is simply impossible...You can't divide zerio by zero; it cannot be....Again, try to resist the urge to simply come back with "OK what created God or the higher power"...if you fall into that trap your missing the point...

But quite simply, knowing that logic teaches us that mass and energy cannot simply come to exist from nothing; someone explain how everything around us came to be without something being there before the very beginning to set things in motion....It's a big deep thought thats hard to wrap your mind around, but it simply is not possibe..
 

ambush80

Senior Member
#2
A good friend of mine is now agnostic, former athiest; prior to that former Baptist; now she just doesn't know and this is why.......How did/could we and all around us come to exist without some sort of higher inteligence; some unexplainable higher power..for a moment don't think in terms of a God, a particular religon, or even a higher form of being and try to overgone the urge to simply come back with what created God, if you do your missing the point......

Logic tells us that everything has a beginning.....no matter how far we go back in any situation, scenrio, or context, there is a beginning....Now even if you go back to the big bang; that moment before the tremendous explosion of energy; what created the very elements that set the ball in motion? Something had to be present for the big bang to have ocurred in the first place....Logic tells us that energy and mass cannot just suddenly come to exist from nothing... It is simply impossible...You can't divide zerio by zero; it cannot be....Again, try to resist the urge to simply come back with "OK what created God or the higher power"...if you fall into that trap your missing the point...

But quite simply, knowing that logic teaches us that mass and energy cannot simply come to exist from nothing; someone explain how everything around us came to be without something being there before the very beginning to set things in motion....It's a big deep thought thats hard to wrap your mind around, but it simply is not possibe..
Why would you dismiss this as not important?

If God doesn't need a creator than why does all the "stuff" need one?
 

fishinbub

Senior Member
#6
Why would you dismiss this as not important?

If God doesn't need a creator than why does all the "stuff" need one?
From dictionary.com

Scientific Law
a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur

God
a supernatural being

Supernatural
or being above or beyond what is natural
 

ted_BSR

Senior Member
#7
From dictionary.com

Scientific Law
a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur

God
a supernatural being

Supernatural
or being above or beyond what is natural
Very good points. The questions in the OP cannot be answered with logic. The answers are supernatural in nature.
 

WTM45

Senior Member
#8
Very good points. The questions in the OP cannot be answered with logic. The answers are supernatural in nature.
Um, wrong.
A person can use supernatural explanations if they so choose, but there is no way a definitive answer can be 100% accurate using such methods.

Best they can do is state they simply do not know.
 
#9
Nothing more than argument from ignorance. Rainbows were also once thought to be supernatural.
 

Tim L

Senior Member
Thread starter #10
Why would you dismiss this as not important?

If God doesn't need a creator than why does all the "stuff" need one?
Because thats anothor issue and this question gets lost when you make that part of the equation....Once you do that the answer becomes nothing exists at all...Again, for just a moment don't put a label on whatever was the spark that set things in motion....If it clouds the issue so much as to say God set things in motion; then think of it as some child of a group of beings with a higher level of existance playing in the equivalent of mud and the universe we now inhabit is the result of that childs playing in the mud....Silly comparison, I know; but some are so eager to put a label on that spark that things break down into the old Pee Wee Hermain line "I know you are but what am I"....

Don't go there...The issue is how did that initial matter that resulted in the big bang come into being a split second before the bang itself???
 

Tim L

Senior Member
Thread starter #11
Chemistry 101,"nothing is ever created or destroyed,it's molecular structure is changed"!
Thank you; whether you meant to or not you just proved my point...nothing is ever destroyed; it's molecular structure just changes....what was is and what is will be...nothing new.....However.....again.....that molecular structure could not have existed from the present to the past infinity without a point of beginning......Somehow, prior to the big bang that initial matter came into being seemingly from nothing....Logically speaking; nothing should exist....Stay with the question that was asked, don't take it into other directions or you won't be able to see the forest for the trees...
 
#12
However.....again.....that molecular structure could not have existed from the present to the past infinity without a point of beginning......Somehow, prior to the big bang that initial matter came into being seemingly from nothing....
How do you know this? How do you know that "something" hasn't always existed?
 
#14
:(Alrighty then; you completely misunderstood the question and have no concept at all of what I asked....
I understand the question. But resorting to a supernatural explanation really explains nothing and as with rainbows is an argument used to plug a gap in our knowledge until the real answer is found.

Your question is based on certain assumptions that we don't know to be true.
 

Tim L

Senior Member
Thread starter #15
I understand the question. But resorting to a supernatural explanation really explains nothing and as with rainbows is an argument used to plug a gap in our knowledge until the real answer is found.

Your question is based on certain assumptions that we don't know to be true.
There doesn't necessarily have to be a supernatural explantion; again thats a code word that is somestimes said when we want to dismiss a troublesome idea, but quite simply how did that initial matter that exploded into becoming the universe we know come into being? Logic tells us that it should not have been there in the first place; but somehow it was....keep in mind, many, many scientific "truths" do not stand the test of time; much of what the scientific community accepted as fact (such as it was and it would not have been in the west; would have been Asia, the Middle East, and the Indian subcontinent) a thousand years ago, such as the practice of "bleeding" a person for a wide variety of physical and emotional problems are not accepted today and it is not too far fetched to expect that much of what is a "scientific truth" today will be a piece of trival in a history book (or program) a thousand years from now...Again do not get too caught up in the term supernatural or if you must consider it from a deist perspective...

If you (or anyone else, do not mean to sound condicending) can do that and start peeling away the layers of this onion and really think about it with an open mind, it is very hard to conceive how anything at all has come to exist without something being the initial spark..
 

ted_BSR

Senior Member
#16
Um, wrong.
A person can use supernatural explanations if they so choose, but there is no way a definitive answer can be 100% accurate using such methods.

Best they can do is state they simply do not know.
Same with logic. Nothing is 100% accurate.
 
#18
What's ridiculous is the God of the gaps argumentation. Doesn't matter if you call it supernatural, intelligence, God, whatever.

Tim you still haven't answered the question that I have asked twice now.
 
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