intresting read

[XIronheadX]

http://www.carolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=12280

"Generally, pine-dominated stands are the only ones planned for burning, since the bark is fire resistant. Stands dominate by oaks will not fare well with a forest fire. However, hardwood stands can tolerate low intensity fires during the winter months while the trees are dormant. But, a summer burn in stands of oaks and other hardwoods will quickly decimate the stand, eliminating acorn production in these areas. "

this is just the first of many more to come.

s&r

He's in the Longleaf environment, Spurrs and racks. I think only 4% of the original ecosystem is left. I'm sure certain trees with tall canopy are detrimental to it's surivival. Hence, burning in growing season to get rid of it, instead of early and fertilizing it. They have found a balance that helps the entire ecoystem.

As far as other ecosystems, certain reading and data would apply. I'm more concerned about what timber companies are doing. They used to leave random hardwood trees that provided food. Now, they seem to take it all and encroach further into the buffer zones. Not to mention, cutting timber at nesting time. Most have their own biologist. I know our lease holder wants us to plant summer plots as well. They are going to manage it for timber regardless.

You have to appreciate a young man with an interest in figuring out what's best.

 

[spurrs and racks]

I'm telling you that this

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/sfsmzbuffers.pdf

is not being followed. There are literally miles of timber being harvested right now, and unlike 30 years ago when they left the hardwood bottoms, they are cutting them as well. leaving a rolling clearcut free of standing trees.

more to come

s&r

 

[Luke.Deer.Commander]

We leave live oaks throughout the landscape for thermal regulation for the poults throughout the summer but it has been proven this is also a good place for predators.... as for logging, we have logged 3 years in a row during the nesting season not on purpose but it was the driest time for our loggers and from our research it has not hurt our turkey or Quail populations because like I said before, over and over, turkey and Quail can renest successfully, and sometimes quail can rear two to three broods in one year. Turkeys will renest and can be highly successful in rearing a brood.

 

[Luke.Deer.Commander]

Also, keep them coming if you want. I'll debunk your every move. Clear cuts have also been proven to provide great primary early successional habitat that is good for bugging for poults and can also be beneficial nesting cover in the following season for turkeys...

 

[XIronheadX]

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/sfsmzbuffers.pdf

is not being followed. There are literally miles of timber being harvested right now, and unlike 30 years ago when they left the hardwood bottoms, they are cutting them as well. leaving a rolling clearcut free of standing trees.

more to come

s&r

I agree with a lot of that. They took every random oak off the last cut I witnessed. If a pine tree will grow there, they make room for it.

 

[spurrs and racks]

nobody I know

burns unless private property. Our timber companies do not do so in leased partials to the public.

Now, back to the federal lands we were talking about. They do burn, in hundreds of acres at a time (not 8 acre partials) and even though these properties are owned by the federal government, or leased by the state, these burns in the late spring and early summer are having an adverse effect on our wildlife in some regard. Predation is certainly a much larger issue, we cannot effect this because these are protected lands and in most cases cannot be entered with a firearm unless a managed hunt is being conducted.

Now, we have an group of sportsmen who are actively pursuing this as a counter productive measure unless these burns are conducted in the winter time only.
(this is not just my idea)

Funny you mention quail. Do you realize that the wild quail population is relatively nonexistent? Up here anyway, the people who shoot them pay to shoot quail that will not hardly fly. I don't know anybody with a wild quail population. Frankly, my concern is for wild turkeys and anything that is counter productive to their survival is not good for me. If it gives wild quail a shot in the arm it's good for me.

That includes the absolute clear cutting of lands leaving no standing timber in it at all. (complete disregard of SMZ laws)And the spraying of these same clear cuts with chemicals that kills all deciduous growth.

It's cool you can model wildlife management practices on a private partial of property to the vast majority of hunting leases. The reality here is, it does not add up everywhere.

We as a conservation group need to have a voice, but these timber cutting practices are about the all mighty dollar. And we have no voice in it.

Finally, let me say this. Leasing or owning a tract of land full of nothing but pines and to be absolutely void of hard woods is not good. It does not take many years of timber company spraying and pellet practice before there is nothing under those pine trees but pine straw.

This year, for the first time in my life, I saw hardwood timber harvested, in hardwood bottoms and replanted with young pine seedlings. This is a disturbing trend for timber practice. And, it continues on.

Remember what I said, we are not in sowega, and our hardwoods are being targeted. And these timber companies are not replanting hardwoods, and they are spraying and throwing pellets to kill them that are left.

Maybe my grandchildren can go to south Georgia to see what an oak tree looks like in the wild.

Turkeys need hardwood bottoms at a minimum or they will leave. Heck, they are going to leave when there home is clear cut.

s&r

 

[spurrs and racks]

and...........

"I'll debunk your every move."

you are not debunking anything or anybody, I've been around much longer than you have.

s&r

 

[QuackAttack101]

Whoa!!! We've got some bunched up panties in here

Keep up the entertainment gentlemen

 

[XIronheadX]

They are trying to keep it civil. lol. Other than Gut Pile, he just plain disrespected his elders. haha

 

[Luke.Deer.Commander]

You are still refuting scientific fact. I don't understand how anyone can refute scientific fact.

 

[XIronheadX]

There's no such thing as scientific fact, though. There's a hypothesis, observation, data, testing, and conclusions. Data can't verify a hypothesis. Science can only disprove something. You change the environment or ecosystem, you change a lot of things. What's good for one species, isn't for another. What applies to coastal plain, doesn't always apply to piedmont, ridge and valley, or mountain regions, always.

Because clear cutting is good the first year, doesn't mean its good year 3 through 10, if the middle portions of huge tracts won't be used by a turkey. Hardwoods are a necessity.

A lot of the data gathered in PDF's I've studied are flawed by other factors. Food plots, supplemental feeding of quail, agriculture, open fields, getting rid of predators. We can't live on pine trees and controlled burning alone. We'll be trying to save hardwood ecosystems, the same as longleaf, before long.

 

[Timberman]

Hardwood stocks are actually increasing. Carry on gentlemen interesting discussion.

https://www.fia.fs.fed.us/library/brochures/docs/2012/ForestFacts_1952-2012_English.pdf


U.S. timber land growing stock inventory, growth, removals,
and mortality, by region and species group,
1952–2012 (continued).
Volume
category Year Region
U.S. North South West
Hardwoods Million cubic feet Volume
2012 424,776 209,043 177,667 38,066
2007 402,894 192,141 170,049 40,704
1997 351,832 164,874 151,515 35,442
1987 314,081 142,420 139,028 32,633
1977 266,096 119,158 122,165 24,773
1963 215,840 94,627 98,985 22,228
1953 184,090 76,695 88,008 19,387
Growth
2011 10,750 5,004 5,002 744
2006 11,503 5,087 5,640 776
1996 10,294 4,251 4,823 1,220
1986 9,629 4,224 4,487 918
1976 9,327 3,791 5,009 528
1962 7,095 3,213 3,394 488
1952 6,175 2,743 3,041 391
Removals
2011 4,535 1,720 2,714 101
2006 5,675 2,143 3,379 152
1996 5,956 2,104 3,707 146
1986 5,083 1,983 2,958 143
1976 4,183 1,953 2,100 129
1962 4,336 1,538 2,713 85
1952 3,909 1,486 2,411 12
Mortality
2011 6,100 1,917 3,853 329
2006 5,790 1,788 3,693 309
1996 4,188 1,172 2,694 321
1986 2,896 875 1,864 157
1976 2,607 824 1,627 156
1962 2,361 647 1,566 148
1952 1,847 475 1,243 129

 

[XIronheadX]

By those numbers it's not in the south, Timberman. Growth dropped from 5640 to 5002 from '06 to '11, even though the removal dropped as well. And mortality increased. It may be in other states, or areas, but they have been laying them down in middle Georgia for a while. You would know a lot more than me, being in the business. All I did was nail it up. lol. But, I've seen no evidence of it the last 30 years as far as total area. The hardwood area shrunk after any cutting visually. Especially oak. That interior forestry cover map shows a lot of brown in Georgia as well, indicating more than 12% loss. Am I missing something? Gum trees mixed in with the pine adding to the total?

Georgia stock: http://www.gatrees.org/about-us/strategic-plan/GAStatewideAssessmentofForestResources.pdf

 

[Roy S]

I have really enjoyed reading these posts. Not only turkey, but I think deer numbers are definitely declining also. So, wouldnt that place the majority of blame on coyotes? I just know about three years ago I was walking around the lease, it was sometime in June if I remember correctly. Anyway, two hens were sitting in some grass and both of them had multiple poults underneath their wingspan. I busted them out of the grass and the poults went running everywhere. A couple of coyotes would have made easy work out of those little birds.

 

[XIronheadX]

I have really enjoyed reading these posts. Not only turkey, but I think deer numbers are definitely declining also. So, wouldnt that place the majority of blame on coyotes? I just know about three years ago I was walking around the lease, it was sometime in June if I remember correctly. Anyway, two hens were sitting in some grass and both of them had multiple poults underneath their wingspan. I busted them out of the grass and the poults went running everywhere. A couple of coyotes would have made easy work out of those little birds.

Deer numbers are declining in areas because of the affordability to hunt mostly(opinion). Lease prices have more people packed in per acreage taking game. Other areas are full of deer. Then there's all the other factors, coyotes included. Turkeys are more fragile though. Even down to the weather after the hatch. I hunted as much as ever this year. It was the first year I didn't see an armadillo in 20 yrs. Maybe they are eating them too. lol

 

[Nicodemus]

Loss of habitat and modern man are the biggest and most hazardous dangers to wild turkeys. Turkeys have associated with everything else out there since the Late Pleistocene, and not only survived, they thrived.

 

[XIronheadX]

Loss of habitat and modern man are the biggest and most hazardous dangers to wild turkeys. Turkeys have associated with everything else out there since the Late Pleistocene, and not only survived, they thrived.

True, Nic. They have learned to adapt to suburban creek bottoms somehow. Same predators plus cars. I had 10 in the yard last year. Saw 2 in Tucker. All over town for years. Then, the woods seem like a fragile environment for some reason.

 

[Garnto88]

Never seen a turkey roost in clearcut maybe because there are no trees. No roost trees and turkeys move. No mast trees no food. A clearcut is only good for a turkey to even walk in for two or three years at most. Then becomes a jungle. This mindset is why our turkey population struggles. Place turkey populations in a smaller area or range and they become more susceptible to every predator man or animal. I’m sorry you can debunk all you want. A pine forest is not the ideal turkey habitat. Talk and debate all you want. When it comes to holding turkeys or deer for that matter a mature hardwood pine mix is ideal. Mast trees are essential to maintain both. Turkeys depend on acorns just as deer, ducks, hogs, etc. Hunting as become such a food plot mentality sport. I’ve seen hunters destroy a great funnel area for deer by going in and cutting down the trees to plant a food plot.. never dawns that the reason they funneled through was because of the mast trees that were found there.. I find it sad the mentality of many of today’s hunters toward the habitat. I leased a beautiful tract last year of hardwood pine mixed and it “held” turkeys all year. This year it’s totally clear cut. Only way now il catch one there is hope they pass through or use tgat area . The whole way of hunting it will change and In two years it will be a thicket. Another hunter stated “it’s a beautiful clearcut” . I’ve never seen a beautiful clearcut . They are all a destruction. It was beautiful before. Never will see it they way it was again period.

 

[XIronheadX]

I'd rather have 500 acres of hardwoods than 2000 acres of pines where turkeys are concerned.
http://www.mdwfp.com/wildlife-hunti...orests-the-foundation-of-wild-turkey-habitat/

 

[Garnto88]

Me too . Exactly. Hardwoods will hold turkeys. Pine forest won’t.