Is Formal Church Membership Biblical?

[Madman]

The reformation is another topic that we can move to another op.

It is your premise that the disciples messed up. How did they mess up? Do you know the entire story of how the list was narrowed to two? I dont see in Scripture where they jumped the gun, if they had I am sure it would have been noted, after all everything is in Scripture that needs to be known.

Dont forget to note where Paul was next in line. And let me know if men ordain other men are they getting ahead of God.

Do you think your pastor could have been "rushing ahead of God "? If he was what would that mean? If not, how do you k ow he wasn't?

 

[NE GA Pappy]

The reformation is another topic that we can move to another op. you are the one that brought it up. I was only responding.

It is your premise that the disciples messed up. How did they mess up? I answered this question twice already. Do I need to answer it again? Do you know the entire story of how the list was narrowed to two? I know what the scriptures say. They were in the upper room praying and decided someone needed to replace Judas. They chose 2 men, and cast lots. That is how scripture records it.
I dont see in Scripture where they jumped the gun, if they had I am sure it would have been noted, after all everything is in Scripture that needs to be known. Aren't we being a bit snippy here?

Dont forget to note where Paul was next in line. And let me know if men ordain other men are they getting ahead of God. I told you that was my feelings, seeing as to all the things Paul did in his life. I didn't say there was scripture for it. I just said that is how I see it.

Do you think your pastor could have been "rushing ahead of God "? No doubt my pastor has rushed ahead before. Just as I have. Just as you have. We are an impatient lot, wanting our desires fulfilled now, and often forgetting that God works on a different time scale than we do. If he was what would that mean? If not, how do you k ow he wasn't? Like I said, I am sure he has. I am also sure that he would be the first to admit to it.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

It seems to me that Paul was to be the next apostle to replace Judas, and that the disciples jumped the gun on their throwing of the lots to decide that Mathias was the next in line.
They put limitations on the selection process, ( being with us since the beginning of John's baptism) and then the idea of casting lots to determine God's will just seems out of sorts to me. It is like putting God in a box, saying here are your choices, make sure you pick the right one out of the ones we have selected for you....

I don't see anything accomplished by Mathias in scripture, but I see a world of things that Paul did... maybe I am wrong. Convince me.

notice the red text above.. and no, it isn't read because it was the words of Jesus.

 

[Madman]

Everybody gets to ask where something is in Scripture but me? That doesn't seem very fair. When I asked I am being snippy.

So it is just a feeling. OK. I dont like to run my theology through feelings.

I can't tell you of I ever rushed ahead of God or not. I just don't know.

 

[Madman]

notice the red text above.. and no, it isn't read because it was the words of Jesus.

Red words of Jesus I like that. I dont mean to sound snippy, i love this type of conversation. I just wish we sitting in my livingroom having it.
it is your premise you can believe as you choose.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Everybody gets to ask where something is in Scripture but me? That doesn't seem very fair. When I asked I am being snippy.

So it is just a feeling. OK. I dont like to run my theology through feelings.

I can't tell you of I ever rushed ahead of God or not. I just don't know.

I don't run my theology thru feeling either. I use scripture. If scripture doesn't have a specific answer, then all I have left is my intuition, and it is fallible at best.

You know you were being snippy with that comment about 'scripture has everything that needs to be known' comment. I have never said that. I do believe where there is a need to know something, scripture has the answer.

I have asked multiple times for you to show me where I am wrong, but it doesn't seem that you wish to have that discussion. and that is fine with me. I am just trying my best to live and 'work out my own salvation, with fear and trembling' as scripture teaches.

Maybe your walk with God is far advanced in relation to my walk with God, and He is trying to refine you beyond what I am able to become now. Maybe not.

 

[Madman]

I don't run my theology thru feeling either. I use scripture. If scripture doesn't have a specific answer, then all I have left is my intuition, and it is fallible at best.

You know you were being snippy with that comment about 'scripture has everything that needs to be known' comment. I have never said that. I do believe where there is a need to know something, scripture has the answer.

I have asked multiple times for you to show me where I am wrong, but it doesn't seem that you wish to have that discussion. and that is fine with me. I am just trying my best to live and 'work out my own salvation, with fear and trembling' as scripture teaches.

Maybe your walk with God is far advanced in relation to my walk with God, and He is trying to refine you beyond what I am able to become now. Maybe not.

Come on Pappy dont get snippy. I have said there is no way to know and I will add it appears to have worked out for the best.

I doubt my walk is refined beyond anyone especially yours. God's peace my friend
I think we have wore this one out.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Come on Pappy dont get snippy. I have said there is no way to know and I will add it appears to have worked out for the best.

I doubt my walk is refined beyond anyone especially yours. God's peace my friend
I think we have wore this one out.

I know that God is in control, and any errors that I or anyone else makes will not affect the ultimate outcome. His will must be accomplished. Rom 8:28, all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are the called according to his purpose.

My walk with God is full of potholes, rough spots and detours that most men would have been able to avoid. I am hard headed, stubborn and blind to some of my most destructive faults.

I do desire a closer walk with God, and a close relationship so that I don't make the mistakes I have in the past.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Even though the disciples were prophets, didn't they also make non-prophet decisions? Reading Paul as well, it was like sometimes he was speaking as Paul the man and sometimes speaking as revelation from God.
What I was trying to figure out was, if the disciples were prophets, could they act as men and choose the wrong replacement for Judas?

I could imagine I could draw lots and choose a wrong preacher but then I don't have any insider information that a prophet my have. Then again, a prophet only knows revelation from God. Beyond that he is speaking as a man.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I would also think that since Jesus chose Judas, he would also have to choose his replacement. And no, he didn't make a mistake either time.

 

[Madman]

I know that God is in control, and any errors that I or anyone else makes will not affect the ultimate outcome. His will must be accomplished. Rom 8:28, all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are the called according to his purpose.

My walk with God is full of potholes, rough spots and detours that most men would have been able to avoid. I am hard headed, stubborn and blind to some of my most destructive faults.

I do desire a closer walk with God, and a close relationship so that I don't make the mistakes I have in the past.

I am with you brother. My theology, and christology, very well be all wrong. All I know is I follow the risen Lord with all I have. My avatar is the madman from Luke, I will never be able to repay my Lord for where he brought me from, but I am out and I will proclaim the Gospel until he, hopefully brings me home.

Never interpret anything I say as though I think that I know more, if I came across that way I sincerely apologize.

It would be my honor to meet you one day.

May the peace of God which passes all understanding keep our hearts and minds in the knowledge and love of God and of his son Jesus Christ.

 

[gordon 2]

Not being judgemental by seeing into both points of views and assessments on the Church that :

A) Or the Church is an institution of essential sacraments...

B) Or the Church is a institution of essential bible study...

Some say A and some say B and the two will need a few centuries to meet but yet only partly. Only part of A will meet with B, and so only part of B with A. Some of A and B will never meet.

 

[gordon 2]

"Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."[Acts 9:17]

Did Paul become an apostle because the Lord appeared to him?,,, or because he was informed by the Holy Spirit provided by the ministry of the Church, via Ananias et al?

When Paul says this:


"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, in keeping with the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,...)

What does he mean " in keeping with the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus".?

Paul says he was appointed a preacher and apostle. Who appointed him? Did Jesus appear to him a second time?

Did Paul know that he would be an apostle before he was baptized and received the Holy Spirit? If not, how was he appointed an apostle equal to the others...?

This is what I get:

God told Ananias that Paul was a chosen vessel. Ananias ministered his hand on Paul and baptized Paul. ( It is understood that he received the Holy Spirit at this point.) Paul spent some time with the redeemed in Damascus and from this point began to preach that Jesus was the son of God... in the Synagogues. ...

So God chose Paul via a member and the body of believers...??? Jesus was not informed of his commission directly by Jesus, but rather through the Church, it's ministering baptism, and Paul receiving the Holy Spirit and from the time he spent with others now like him. So Paul can say that Christ chose him an apostle and what Paul means is that the body of Christ informed and confirmed him of his appointment. The instruments of this choosing was ministered by the comfort and the sacraments within the Church. God chose to inform the church first of Paul's calling... not Paul first and because it happened this way... Paul can say Jesus chose him...preacher and apostle, yet it was God's witness within the church appointed him such.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I see several apostles not mentioned after the Gospels. Did Jesus miss the mark in their choosing?

True but if Mathias was one of "the" twelve, wouldn't you think he'd be mentioned more as to how God used him like the other eleven?

Then Paul comes along and his revelation and purpose is super important. He wasn't even seeking God and was chosen by grace and not of works. It would be like the Church grabbing someone off the street to be the Priest. Someone who had never done any works.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Of the twelve original disciples, are they all mentioned as much as the main ones? Like Simon the Zealot, what did he do according to scripture?
Still though he is an arm or leg of the body.

 

[LittleDrummerBoy]

Wow! Seems like we've danced around the question of the OP very thoroughly, but not made much headway in answering it. Setting aside the important question "What is a valid church?" for now, let's assume we're talking about a valid church. So, is formal church membership a Biblical component of a valid church?

My view is that it can be, but isn't required. Since there is nothing in Scripture prohibiting formal membership in a local church, and Scripture describes the job of the elders to "direct the affairs of the church" then a specific local body of elders may reasonably decide to have formal membership in their church. Of course, since it is also not required by Scripture, another local body of elders may reasonably decide NOT to have formal membership in their church.

The great liberty that individuals and families have in Christ also applies to local bodies of elders in directing the affairs of their specific churches. If a practice is neither prohibited by Scripture or required by Scripture, then it is a reasonable exercise of discretion by the appropriate party - as guided by wisdom, experience, and the Holy Spirit. This principle applies to individuals for matters subject to their discretion, to heads of households for family matters, and to bodies of elders for church matters.

 

[Madman]

My answer to the OP is yes.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I don't believe that Heaven waits for only those that congregate! Don Williams.

Is formal or valid Church biblical? Yes, didn't Paul write letters to valid Churches?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Oh, formal membership? Not the Churches themselves. Wouldn't a valid Church have to have valid members?