Is there a discussion about the blood moons?

hobbs27

Senior Member
I don't believe there is this separation from God at death,even for the old testament saints,based on Eccl.12:7:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was;and the spirit shall return to God who gave it."
What purpose did the cross serve, if eternal life was offered in the Old Testament?

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a fable?
 
What purpose did the cross serve, if eternal life was offered in the Old Testament?

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a fable?
The old testament saints were covered by the same blood that the new testament saints are.Not by the blood of bulls and goats,but by the blood of Jesus.The animal sacrifices only pointed forward to the only acceptable sacrifice,which was Jesus.He atoned for all the sins of all his people one time and then sat down,because the work was finished.

The parable of the rich man and Lazerus does not show separation of Abraham and Lazerus from God.Only separation of the rich man by a great gulf,who was in torment.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
The old testament saints were covered by the same blood that the new testament saints are.Not by the blood of bulls and goats,but by the blood of Jesus.The animal sacrifices only pointed forward to the only acceptable sacrifice,which was Jesus.He atoned for all the sins of all his people one time and then sat down,because the work was finished.

The parable of the rich man and Lazerus does not show separation of Abraham and Lazerus from God.Only separation of the rich man by a great gulf,who was in torment.

So , what purpose did the cross serve?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
I just told you.To atone for all the sins of ALL God's people.

John 3:13

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.


Here is an old covenant example of the spirit being summoned from the grave, not in heaven, not in Gods presence but from the earth.

7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.”

And his servants said to him, “In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.”

8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”

9 Then the woman said to him, “Look, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life, to cause me to die?”

10 And Saul swore to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.”

11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”

13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”

And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit[a] ascending out of the earth.”

14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”

And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
I just told you.To atone for all the sins of ALL God's people.
The reason I had to ask twice is because I'm trying to make sense of what your eluding to.

Evidently , if I now understand you is that Christ could been crucified anytime , in our past or in our future and Adam , Abel, Moses , Abraham would still be covered by His blood, at their death????
 
John 3:13

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.


Here is an old covenant example of the spirit being summoned from the grave, not in heaven, not in Gods presence but from the earth.

7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.”

And his servants said to him, “In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.”

8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”

9 Then the woman said to him, “Look, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life, to cause me to die?”

10 And Saul swore to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.”

11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”

13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”

And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit[a] ascending out of the earth.”

14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”

And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
John 3:13 speaks of our physical body,which has not ascended to heaven yet.Only Jesus has.
1 Cor.15:20 basically says the same thing.

As far as Samuel being summoned,it was his spirit.
In the parable of Lazerus and the rich man,Abraham never said it was impossible to send Lazerus,he only said it would do no good.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
John 3:13 speaks of our physical body,which has not ascended to heaven yet.Only Jesus has.
1 Cor.15:20 basically says the same thing.

As far as Samuel being summoned,it was his spirit.
In the parable of Lazerus and the rich man,Abraham never said it was impossible to send Lazerus,he only said it would do no good.

John 3 does not say physical bodies.
Neither does 1 Corinthians 15...matter of fact 1 Corinthians 15 says that flesh which is corruption will not inherit heaven which is incorruption.
Verse 50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
 
John 3 does not say physical bodies.
Neither does 1 Corinthians 15...matter of fact 1 Corinthians 15 says that flesh which is corruption will not inherit heaven which is incorruption.
Verse 50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
You're right.Corruption will not inherit the kingdom of God.God's elect will be given a glorified body fashioned like unto His.We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed.In a moment,in the twinkling of an eye.This corruption must put on incorruption and this mortality must put on immortality.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
I'll let you slide on the timing of it today. :biggrin3:
We've discussed the nature, and I guess we have come to an agreement that our bodies will be spiritual since God is Spirit and we will have a body as His?
 
The reason I had to ask twice is because I'm trying to make sense of what your eluding to.

Evidently , if I now understand you is that Christ could been crucified anytime , in our past or in our future and Adam , Abel, Moses , Abraham would still be covered by His blood, at their death????
Isn't that the way it happened? I'm not saying they went directly to Heaven but if they believed Jesus would one day die for their sins, then they were covered by the blood of Christ.

Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. They might have waited in Paradise but it was still the blood of Christ that atoned their sins.

One of those God operating out of time things.
 
I'll let you slide on the timing of it today. :biggrin3:
We've discussed the nature, and I guess we have come to an agreement that our bodies will be spiritual since God is Spirit and we will have a body as His?
I've enjoyed it as I always do Hobbs.Always a challenge with you brother.:cheers:
 
Isn't that the way it happened? I'm not saying they went directly to Heaven but if they believed Jesus would one day die for their sins, then they were covered by the blood of Christ.

Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. They might have waited in Paradise but it was still the blood of Christ that atoned their sins.

One of those God operating out of time things.
I believe so Art.
John 8:56 says "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day,and he saw it and was glad."
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Isn't that the way it happened? I'm not saying they went directly to Heaven but if they believed Jesus would one day die for their sins, then they were covered by the blood of Christ.

Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. They might have waited in Paradise but it was still the blood of Christ that atoned their sins.

One of those God operating out of time things.
I don't think they obtained Salvation until the cross. Jesus descended to them after the blood was shed, if a person believes in predestination, then what matter is the timing of the cross?
I don't, or I guess you could say I'm a partial predestiner, I do believe in an experience of grace, I don't believe grace could be experienced until grace came though.

Jesus offered eternal life, that's a New Covenant offering, Death reigned in the Old Covenant.....
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I'll let you slide on the timing of it today. :biggrin3:
We've discussed the nature, and I guess we have come to an agreement that our bodies will be spiritual since God is Spirit and we will have a body as His?
Interesting conclusion for today. But tomorrow, for Jesus being both God and man, I suggest that our bodies will be physical as well. Perhaps this might come up some other day.


Maybe you guys already know this and in fact maybe there is nothing to this, ( I'm not too good with this stuff) but the word for natural body in other languages is a word to mean nephesh in hebrew. I know that in french it is written "corp psychique" or "corp psyche". It is my understanding that the nephesh is the vital principal that animates the human body as understood by Paul and bible tradition. My point if I understand correctly is that what 1 Corinthians 15:44 might read is that" It is sown a "nephesh' body: it is raised a spiritual body.

1Corinthians 15:44King (KJV)

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

( Natural body here just does not convey the right meaning perhaps... because it is not the body that is sown, but the psyche or the nephesh.)

Nephesh would have psychic as a english translation perhaps.. and perhaps it would mean

: Which concerns thought, spirit.
english : psychic.

synomyms:

cerebral, intellectuel, interieur, mental, moral, spiritual.

If all this is not usefull toss it. Like I say I'm not good with things like this. Viewed in a simplistic way I read " It is sown a spiritual body and raised a spiritual body, but the one sown is different than the raised one..."
 
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I don't think they obtained Salvation until the cross. Jesus descended to them after the blood was shed, if a person believes in predestination, then what matter is the timing of the cross?
I don't, or I guess you could say I'm a partial predestiner, I do believe in an experience of grace, I don't believe grace could be experienced until grace came though.

Jesus offered eternal life, that's a New Covenant offering, Death reigned in the Old Covenant.....
They had faith in God. They believed he would sin the Messiah. Why does it matter when Christ would die within the scope of our lives?
For them the promise was after their physical death, for us it is after.
Perhaps they had the promise of salvation and had to await for the actual blood of the cross atonement until they either, left the grave or left Paradise to be with God.

They had salvation from everlasting death, they just had to wait awhile to receive it.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
They had faith in God. They believed he would sin the Messiah. Why does it matter when Christ would die within the scope of our lives?
For them the promise was after their physical death, for us it is after.
Perhaps they had the promise of salvation and had to await for the actual blood of the cross atonement until they either, left the grave or left Paradise to be with God.

They had salvation from everlasting death, they just had to wait awhile to receive it.
It is covenant that matters. They had a covenant in which death reigned. We have a covenant in which everlasting life is the goal.
 
During Christ's transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were present.
Elijah was taken to Heaven without dying but we know that no man has come down from Heaven but Jesus.
How can Moses and Elijah have been present at the transfiguration if they were waiting for the resurrection? Elijah never died so he could be present without a resurrection.
Special instances maybe as God buried Moses himself. There is speculation that God resurrected Moses after the archangel Michael contended with Satan over the body of Moses.
 
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