Jehovah Witnesses

kmh1031

Senior Member
J_Seph,
Again
Thorough research is your friend on many of the scriptures you noted the NWT Eliminated:
Acts 8:37
Some later Greek manuscripts and some ancient translations into other languages, with slight variations in wording, add:
“Philip said to him: ‘If you believe with all your heart, it is permissible.’ In reply he said: ‘I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.’”

However, these words do not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and are most likely not part of the original text of Acts.

Should they be in there IF not in many of the original manuscripts?

You don’t have to take my word for it... simply do your own research
 
It doesn't bother me in the least if it is interpreted 'was with God, and was God' or 'was a God'.

What inquiring minds want to know is this. Is the Word a true God, or a false God?
gee. I guess my question doesn't deserve an answer
 
Interesting is that the "Word" was with God. So the Word was with God and "was" God.

Why don't Oneness believers get the beef that JW's and Unitarians do?

Oneness see the Word as Logos or the mind of God or God's thoughts/words. The Son was only with God and was God, only in Word. This one and only God "became" the Son. The Son "became" the one and only God. He wasn't just a pre-existing part of God. He "was" God. He became God at his physical incarnation. The one and only God.

Maybe Trinitarians can deal with that concept easier than the JW or Unitarian views.
 
Still though it appears the Father talked to the Son from the beginning. Like they both pre-existed in some "out of time" way, as time had not been created yet.
I still can't wrap my mind around a spirit Father talking to his spirit Son, who is actually himself. Then that part of God becoming a human who is even farther from who he was because he then picks up the spirit of a man. This spirit being completely different from who he was or is. The Son, now back in Heaven, is human, picking up a human spirit in the process.

Neither or none are an easy concept. I think it just makes us accept the concept we were raised with and look at the other concepts as wrong.
 

kmh1031

Senior Member
Great response Art...and the fact that many of us (myself included) have been taught, training, other teachings, may make us resistant to hearing a different understanding.

Regarding Jesus, God,
Christian religion “in its three classic forms of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism acknowledges one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Thus according to Christian theology, this acknowledgment is not a recognition of three gods but that these three persons are essentially one.” The New Encyclopædia Britannica.
But what does the Bible and Jesus say? IN many places in the bible it shows Jesus and God as separate beings. Note just a few:
  • Matt 20:23 Jesus cannot do it as the decision is his fathers
  • At Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ said: “But of that day or that hour [of God’s coming execution of judgment] no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
  • (IF they were one…would they all 3 not know the day and time?)
  • Psalms 110:1 LORD said to my Lord? Who is talking to who? Review the original translation for the answer
  • Luke 22:29 I make a covenant with you, just like my father has made a covenant with me for the kingdom
  • 1 john 4:14 the father sent his son as savior of the world
  • John 2:16 stop making the house of my father the house of commerce
  • John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
  • 1 Cor 15:28 shows that Jesus will subject himself to God…Equal? Not according to this scripture.
Jesus, the Son of God, never claimed to be equal to or of the same substance as his Father. Rather, he said: “I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” John 14:28.

Jesus also told one of his followers at John 20:17: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”

What about the Holy Spirit? The bible clearly shows is not a person or being, or third part of the Trinity.

Early Christians “became filled with holy spirit,” and at Acts 2:1-4 & 17: God said: “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh.”

So the holy spirit is not part of a Trinity but is God’s active force. Is any of this important? Does it really matter?

So the next point to discuss, is can you really love someone who is impossible to know or understand?
Ask any Christian who believes in the Trinity to explain it, and many, even here have a hard time doing so, and also you may get different answers on it.
The doctrine of the Trinity, is not scriptural and is a barrier to knowing and loving God.

The bible teaches us at 1 Cor 14:33, that God is not a God of confusion.” ((American Standard Version)
He has not hidden his identity from us.
He wants us to know him. Jesus said at John 4:22: “We worship what we know.”

Just providing this info as food for thought, and if you believe otherwise, that is fine too, Like the Apostle Paul, who gave a sermon to the "unknown Greek God," I just post here to present other ideas...
 
Great response Art...and the fact that many of us (myself included) have been taught, training, other teachings, may make us resistant to hearing a different understanding.

Regarding Jesus, God,
Christian religion “in its three classic forms of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism acknowledges one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Thus according to Christian theology, this acknowledgment is not a recognition of three gods but that these three persons are essentially one.” The New Encyclopædia Britannica.
But what does the Bible and Jesus say? IN many places in the bible it shows Jesus and God as separate beings. Note just a few:
  • Matt 20:23 Jesus cannot do it as the decision is his fathers
  • At Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ said: “But of that day or that hour [of God’s coming execution of judgment] no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
  • (IF they were one…would they all 3 not know the day and time?)
  • Psalms 110:1 LORD said to my Lord? Who is talking to who? Review the original translation for the answer
  • Luke 22:29 I make a covenant with you, just like my father has made a covenant with me for the kingdom
  • 1 john 4:14 the father sent his son as savior of the world
  • John 2:16 stop making the house of my father the house of commerce
  • John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
  • 1 Cor 15:28 shows that Jesus will subject himself to God…Equal? Not according to this scripture.
Jesus, the Son of God, never claimed to be equal to or of the same substance as his Father. Rather, he said: “I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” John 14:28.

Jesus also told one of his followers at John 20:17: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”

What about the Holy Spirit? The bible clearly shows is not a person or being, or third part of the Trinity.

Early Christians “became filled with holy spirit,” and at Acts 2:1-4 & 17: God said: “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh.”

So the holy spirit is not part of a Trinity but is God’s active force. Is any of this important? Does it really matter?

So the next point to discuss, is can you really love someone who is impossible to know or understand?
Ask any Christian who believes in the Trinity to explain it, and many, even here have a hard time doing so, and also you may get different answers on it.
The doctrine of the Trinity, is not scriptural and is a barrier to knowing and loving God.

The bible teaches us at 1 Cor 14:33, that God is not a God of confusion.” ((American Standard Version)
He has not hidden his identity from us.
He wants us to know him. Jesus said at John 4:22: “We worship what we know.”

Just providing this info as food for thought, and if you believe otherwise, that is fine too, Like the Apostle Paul, who gave a sermon to the "unknown Greek God," I just post here to present other ideas...
I think you can love God because he first loved you. God is the one who draws one to the Son. Regardless of how we see this, salvation is still of the Lord. By trying to say your way is the only way, it puts you in the same boat as the Trinity and Oneness believers.

It's the Unity of the Oneness that we don't understand. The salvation part, most of us understand. We don't have to believe Jesus is anything other than God's Son. It matters not to God whom he calls.

So you can believe the Son is 1/3rd of the always being Godhead, The oneness af the Father incarnate, the adopted Son of God, or Michael, matters not. If God has bestowed His calling on you, and you believe Jesus died for your sins, then that gift of salvation is yours.

I would think that most new people called by God out of the small villages and islands, no very little about whether the Trinity way, the Oneness way, or any other way is correct. They only know Jesus died for their sins.
 
I once thought that when God elects someone he bestows upon them the knowledge of exactly how the unity of Him is with His son, and myself. I thought that God had revealed to me by revelation which way is true.
I now know that is wrong. I don't think we'll be able to understand that unity and oneness until Jesus returns and we see Jesus as he is and become like him. Jesus did want his disciples to share the unity that he shared with his Father.

I would agree that his Father is our Father and his God is our God. In that respect, we will eventually share some part of that unity. Exactly what that means hasn't been revealed to me either.
 

j_seph

Senior Member
J_Seph,
Again
Thorough research is your friend on many of the scriptures you noted the NWT Eliminated:
Acts 8:37
Some later Greek manuscripts and some ancient translations into other languages, with slight variations in wording, add:
“Philip said to him: ‘If you believe with all your heart, it is permissible.’ In reply he said: ‘I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.’”

However, these words do not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and are most likely not part of the original text of Acts.

Should they be in there IF not in many of the original manuscripts?

You don’t have to take my word for it... simply do your own research
I actually quoted what I had seen on a website. I have actually never sat down and dug deep. However in the 1568 Bishops Bible John 3:16 reads

For God so loued the worlde, that he gaue his only begotten sonne, that whosoeuer beleueth in hym, shoulde not perishe, but haue euerlastyng lyfe.

Just seems to me if the KJV reads pretty much identical to the 1568 which states "Only Begotten" not his only son and the bible also states we are children of God which would be contradicting to these other versions.

NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
NLT
For this is how God loved the world: He gave[a] his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
LEB
For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
NCV
God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life.
 
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