Jehovah Witnesses

[Artfuldodger]

Regarding Matt 25:41
The question comes up: Is “the eternal fire” Jesus warned of literal or symbolic?
Note that “the eternal fire” mentioned by Jesus and recorded at Matthew 25:41 was prepared “for the devil and his angels.”

Do you think that literal fire can burn spirit creatures?

Obviously not, as you remember the fiery furnace with the 3 Hebrews and the Angel….did not bother them..
So was Jesus using the term “fire” symbolically?

Certainly “the sheep” and “the goats” mentioned in the same discourse are not literal; they are word pictures that represent two types of people. This is found at Matthew 25:32, 33
The eternal fire that Jesus spoke of completely burns up the wicked in a figurative sense.
Everlasting punishment, is simply death.
The bible does not preach a ****, nor did Jesus or God.
The soul that is sinning it itself shall die..Ex 18:4.
Romans 6:7 all those who have died have been acquitted of their sins
ECC 9: 5-9, condition of dead.
Ps 146:3-4 all return to dust.

In Eden, did God say Adam would die? or go to a fiery torment? IF these was such a thing, would it not be more cruel to not tell Adam that was his destiny if he sinned?

**** translated into many bibles is incorrect, it is simply mankind common grave, Sheol, or Hades.

Did you know good men were in **** (the grave) Jacob and Job expected to go there.
David, Moses, Abraham and other faithful men did not go to heaven? what was their hope?

Jeremiah 7:31, burning of people, via fire is something detestable to God...and not even he had thought of it...

" They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart."

Hey, we agree on something. I'll bet we both agree Jesus is the son of God as well.

But suppose a brother sees everlasting life as an alternative to everlasting torment instead of everlasting death. Does that simple belief take away his everlasting life?

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'm not sure how one can even gain salvation from eternal torment and call it everlasting life. Salvation in the form of everlasting life would be from Death. Otherwise it's not everlasting life. We would have to call it something else like "everlasting escape from torment with no such thing as death." If one can't die. If no one can gain immortality. If we are born immortal.

 

[NCHillbilly]

after hosting two of his missionaries, sending them packing with some peach preserves, spiced apples and honey from our hive,

I think I’m gonna come over to your house and swear up and down that I’m a jehova witness.

 

[kmh1031]

The apostle Paul said to a group of Jews who also entertained the hope of a resurrection that “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” Ac 24:15.

Our study of the bible makes it plain who are “the righteous.” First of all, those who are to receive a heavenly resurrection are declared righteous, Ro 8:28-30.

But not all go to heaven, as the Bible calls faithful men of old such as Abraham righteous in Ge 15:6; and Jas 2:21

Interestingly many of these men are listed at Hebrews chapter 11, and of them the writer says: “And yet all these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, (meaning a resurrection to heaven) as God foresaw something better for us spirit-begotten, anointed Christians like Paul in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” Note Heb 11:39, 40

All will agree that Abraham, Moses David were all god fearing righteous men, yet did not have the heavenly hope…

So then there is the “great crowd” described in Revelation chapter 7, who are not members of the “sealed” ones, and who consequently do not have “the token” of the spirit as being spirit-begotten as shown in Eph 1:13, 14; 2Co 5:5

They are described as coming “out of the great tribulation” as survivors of it; this would seem to locate the gathering of this group in the last days shortly before that tribulation.

Now to the who is resurrected, as there are many “unrighteous” persons buried in Sheol (Hades), mankind’s common grave, or in “the sea,” watery graves etc.

The judgment of these along with “the righteous” resurrected on earth is described in Revelation 20:12, 13: “And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened.

But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.”

The bible plainly tells is that once we have died, we have been forgiven of your sins, (Romans 6:7) no eternal torment, this must be future judgement not based on our past deeds. SO they are resurrected to study and learn and gain accurate knowledge. Their judgement day begins in this period…

The resurrected ones will be in gods memory. IF he can build the earth, universe, all our hairs of our head are numbered, he calls the stars by name, certainly he can remember and completely resurrect us.

They are judged based on their future course, after coming to an accurate knowledge of the bible…the purpose of the peaceful 1000 years.

 

[kmh1031]

that would be awesome!

 

[kmh1031]

but you have to know the secret handshake

 

[Artfuldodger]

The apostle Paul said to a group of Jews who also entertained the hope of a resurrection that “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” Ac 24:15.

Our study of the bible makes it plain who are “the righteous.” First of all, those who are to receive a heavenly resurrection are declared righteous, Ro 8:28-30.

But not all go to heaven, as the Bible calls faithful men of old such as Abraham righteous in Ge 15:6; and Jas 2:21

Interestingly many of these men are listed at Hebrews chapter 11, and of them the writer says: “And yet all these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, (meaning a resurrection to heaven) as God foresaw something better for us spirit-begotten, anointed Christians like Paul in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” Note Heb 11:39, 40

All will agree that Abraham, Moses David were all god fearing righteous men, yet did not have the heavenly hope…

So then there is the “great crowd” described in Revelation chapter 7, who are not members of the “sealed” ones, and who consequently do not have “the token” of the spirit as being spirit-begotten as shown in Eph 1:13, 14; 2Co 5:5

They are described as coming “out of the great tribulation” as survivors of it; this would seem to locate the gathering of this group in the last days shortly before that tribulation.

Now to the who is resurrected, as there are many “unrighteous” persons buried in Sheol (Hades), mankind’s common grave, or in “the sea,” watery graves etc.

The judgment of these along with “the righteous” resurrected on earth is described in Revelation 20:12, 13: “And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened.

But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.”

The bible plainly tells is that once we have died, we have been forgiven of your sins, (Romans 6:7) no eternal torment, this must be future judgement not based on our past deeds. SO they are resurrected to study and learn and gain accurate knowledge. Their judgement day begins in this period…

The resurrected ones will be in gods memory. IF he can build the earth, universe, all our hairs of our head are numbered, he calls the stars by name, certainly he can remember and completely resurrect us.

They are judged based on their future course, after coming to an accurate knowledge of the bible…the purpose of the peaceful 1000 years.

I'd sure hate to think my salvation is based on an accurate knowledge of the Bible. I still don't understand how everyone can resurrect if salvation is from eternal life. What do those who don't gain everlasting life do after their resurrection? Do they die again?

Why awaken someone to tell them they are dead? That they aren't receiving eternal life?

 

[Artfuldodger]

The thing about Satan and the trouble he causes us now on the earth is not just a JW belief. Many Christians believe Satan is the ruler of this world and that we must all suffer until Christ returns and cast Satan in the abyss.
We will continue to suffer until then. Many verses about Jesus crushing Satan when he returns.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26
Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 Corinthians 15:28
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[kmh1031]

Full accurate knowledge cannot be fully achieved in our imperfect state... however striving for it and working in harmony with gods will among other things will help us achieve salvation and everlasting life.
Spirit and truth, we must strive for it and put away traditions, false teachings, that are not in harmony with the Bible...

Surviving the end of this old system or being brought back to life in the resurrection we are still imperfect, inherited by Adam...
this the judgement day... we all will work in the 1,000 years to achieve perfection as Adam was perfect and without the influence of Satan. We all that survive or god resurrects them come to an accurate understanding of the Bible and new scrolls will be opened.
So this time is an education period also...

The Bible talks of a time of righteousness in all his holy mountain and many bible prophesies show it is on watch and a restoration of mankind and the earth.
No more sickness, death, Satan, bad influence, or wicked people
After perfection has been obtained, like Adam and Eve who lost for all of us
Then the Bible shows we will be tested.

Revelation:” And Satan will be loosed for a little while”
Those surviving this final test as they will be perfect like Adam and Eve, will gain immortality in this peaceful paradise earth just as god originally planned on the garden of Eden

 

[kmh1031]

Excellent scriptures etc and you are truly on track as Jesus will hand over the kingdom back to his father

 

[Artfuldodger]

Full accurate knowledge cannot be fully achieved in our imperfect state... however striving for it and working in harmony with gods will among other things will help us achieve salvation and everlasting life.
Spirit and truth, we must strive for it and put away traditions, false teachings, that are not in harmony with the Bible...

Surviving the end of this old system or being brought back to life in the resurrection we are still imperfect, inherited by Adam...
this the judgement day... we all will work in the 1,000 years to achieve perfection as Adam was perfect and without the influence of Satan. We all that survive or god resurrects them come to an accurate understanding of the Bible and new scrolls will be opened.
So this time is an education period also...

The Bible talks of a time of righteousness in all his holy mountain and many bible prophesies show it is on watch and a restoration of mankind and the earth.
No more sickness, death, Satan, bad influence, or wicked people
After perfection has been obtained, like Adam and Eve who lost for all of us
Then the Bible shows we will be tested.

Revelation:” And Satan will be loosed for a little while”
Those surviving this final test as they will be perfect like Adam and Eve, will gain immortality in this peaceful paradise earth just as god originally planned on the garden of Eden

If Satan is the ruler of this world now, even when we resurrect imperfect, how can we overcome our imperfect state even in 1,000 years? I mean even with New Scrolls, won't Satan still be around to corrupt us?

If all of that is true, what was the reason for Christ dying on a cross for our inability to not achieve what you say we will able to do in that 1,000 years?
If I can't redeem myself now, I'm not sure I'll be able to do it in the Millennium.

You keep mentioning knowledge as being a major part of one gaining salvation thorough there own redemption process. But we can't do it now and must wait for the Millennium.

Paul said "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

If I am truly washed in the blood and sanctified and justified, I'm not sure there is really nothing knowledge can do to add to my salvation.

Knowledge can help me to learn to be more Christ like. It help me act holy. It can do a lot of things but knowledge will never offer me a way to salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

 

[j_seph]

Regarding Matt 25:41
The question comes up: Is “the eternal fire” Jesus warned of literal or symbolic?
Note that “the eternal fire” mentioned by Jesus and recorded at Matthew 25:41 was prepared “for the devil and his angels.”

Do you think that literal fire can burn spirit creatures?

Obviously not, as you remember the fiery furnace with the 3 Hebrews and the Angel….did not bother them..
So was Jesus using the term “fire” symbolically?

Certainly “the sheep” and “the goats” mentioned in the same discourse are not literal; they are word pictures that represent two types of people. This is found at Matthew 25:32, 33
The eternal fire that Jesus spoke of completely burns up the wicked in a figurative sense.
Everlasting punishment, is simply death.
The bible does not preach a ****, nor did Jesus or God.
The soul that is sinning it itself shall die..Ex 18:4.
Romans 6:7 all those who have died have been acquitted of their sins
ECC 9: 5-9, condition of dead.
Ps 146:3-4 all return to dust.

In Eden, did God say Adam would die? or go to a fiery torment? IF these was such a thing, would it not be more cruel to not tell Adam that was his destiny if he sinned?

**** translated into many bibles is incorrect, it is simply mankind common grave, Sheol, or Hades.

Did you know good men were in **** (the grave) Jacob and Job expected to go there.
David, Moses, Abraham and other faithful men did not go to heaven? what was their hope?

Jeremiah 7:31, burning of people, via fire is something detestable to God...and not even he had thought of it...

" They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart."

You should probably go read the verses at the beginning of that chapter and see who the left and who the right is, who the sheep and who the goats are.

 

[kmh1031]

Art
1.Satan and his demons will be abyssed during that time period this no influence

2.All wickedness will be gone the education process will begin
Note Ezekiel, Ps and many other scripture during that time period
We all will grow to perfection.

3.Adam via his perfect life cost us a chance at everlasting life... this a ransom had to be paid to free us from the Debt this we die Rpm 5:12
Jesus was that lamb, or ransom and he makes the way for all of us via his sacrifice to regain everlasting life

4.Yes we can continue to gain knowledge remember way back in earlier posts; John 17:3 taking in knowledge of Jesus and the one who sent him forth...
much more is needed though but this is the start

The Bible does not agree with once saved always saves.... Matt 24:13
We continue to work out our salvation... we are never done..

We can never complete our knowledge of Jehovah and Jesus... their attributes their qualities. Gods fruit of the spirit and how they apply and we can apply in our life... the many examples in the Bible how they can help us, endure trials and so much more.

No.. doing God’s will taking in knowledge constantly helps us

 

[kmh1031]

j Sept
Will do.. thanks

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I think I’m gonna come over to your house and swear up and down that I’m a jehova witness.

Come on over Brother. When you come to my house everyone is treated as family.

 

[kmh1031]

What for dinner?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

You should probably go read the verses at the beginning of that chapter and see who the left and who the right is, who the sheep and who the goats are.

Wasting your time Brother.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

What for dinner?

Dunno. I'm grateful for whatever is put in front of me.

 

[kmh1031]

J_Seph
Why would you say he is wasting his time?