Jehovah Witnesses

[kmh1031]

J_Seph,
Again
Thorough research is your friend on many of the scriptures you noted the NWT Eliminated:
Acts 8:37
Some later Greek manuscripts and some ancient translations into other languages, with slight variations in wording, add:
“Philip said to him: ‘If you believe with all your heart, it is permissible.’ In reply he said: ‘I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.’”

However, these words do not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and are most likely not part of the original text of Acts.

Should they be in there IF not in many of the original manuscripts?

You don’t have to take my word for it... simply do your own research

 

[NE GA Pappy]

It doesn't bother me in the least if it is interpreted 'was with God, and was God' or 'was a God'.

What inquiring minds want to know is this. Is the Word a true God, or a false God?

gee. I guess my question doesn't deserve an answer

 

[Artfuldodger]

Interesting is that the "Word" was with God. So the Word was with God and "was" God.

Why don't Oneness believers get the beef that JW's and Unitarians do?

Oneness see the Word as Logos or the mind of God or God's thoughts/words. The Son was only with God and was God, only in Word. This one and only God "became" the Son. The Son "became" the one and only God. He wasn't just a pre-existing part of God. He "was" God. He became God at his physical incarnation. The one and only God.

Maybe Trinitarians can deal with that concept easier than the JW or Unitarian views.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Still though it appears the Father talked to the Son from the beginning. Like they both pre-existed in some "out of time" way, as time had not been created yet.
I still can't wrap my mind around a spirit Father talking to his spirit Son, who is actually himself. Then that part of God becoming a human who is even farther from who he was because he then picks up the spirit of a man. This spirit being completely different from who he was or is. The Son, now back in Heaven, is human, picking up a human spirit in the process.

Neither or none are an easy concept. I think it just makes us accept the concept we were raised with and look at the other concepts as wrong.

 

[kmh1031]

Great response Art...and the fact that many of us (myself included) have been taught, training, other teachings, may make us resistant to hearing a different understanding.

Regarding Jesus, God,
Christian religion “in its three classic forms of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism acknowledges one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Thus according to Christian theology, this acknowledgment is not a recognition of three gods but that these three persons are essentially one.” The New Encyclopædia Britannica.
But what does the Bible and Jesus say? IN many places in the bible it shows Jesus and God as separate beings. Note just a few:

• Matt 20:23 Jesus cannot do it as the decision is his fathers
• At Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ said: “But of that day or that hour [of God’s coming execution of judgment] no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
• (IF they were one…would they all 3 not know the day and time?)
• Psalms 110:1 LORD said to my Lord? Who is talking to who? Review the original translation for the answer
• Luke 22:29 I make a covenant with you, just like my father has made a covenant with me for the kingdom
• 1 john 4:14 the father sent his son as savior of the world
• John 2:16 stop making the house of my father the house of commerce
• John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
• 1 Cor 15:28 shows that Jesus will subject himself to God…Equal? Not according to this scripture.

Jesus, the Son of God, never claimed to be equal to or of the same substance as his Father. Rather, he said: “I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” John 14:28.

Jesus also told one of his followers at John 20:17: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”

What about the Holy Spirit? The bible clearly shows is not a person or being, or third part of the Trinity.

Early Christians “became filled with holy spirit,” and at Acts 2:1-4 & 17: God said: “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh.”

So the holy spirit is not part of a Trinity but is God’s active force. Is any of this important? Does it really matter?

So the next point to discuss, is can you really love someone who is impossible to know or understand?
Ask any Christian who believes in the Trinity to explain it, and many, even here have a hard time doing so, and also you may get different answers on it.
The doctrine of the Trinity, is not scriptural and is a barrier to knowing and loving God.

The bible teaches us at 1 Cor 14:33, that God is not a God of confusion.” ((American Standard Version)
He has not hidden his identity from us.
He wants us to know him. Jesus said at John 4:22: “We worship what we know.”

Just providing this info as food for thought, and if you believe otherwise, that is fine too, Like the Apostle Paul, who gave a sermon to the "unknown Greek God," I just post here to present other ideas...

 

[Artfuldodger]

Great response Art...and the fact that many of us (myself included) have been taught, training, other teachings, may make us resistant to hearing a different understanding.

Regarding Jesus, God,
Christian religion “in its three classic forms of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism acknowledges one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Thus according to Christian theology, this acknowledgment is not a recognition of three gods but that these three persons are essentially one.” The New Encyclopædia Britannica.
But what does the Bible and Jesus say? IN many places in the bible it shows Jesus and God as separate beings. Note just a few:

• Matt 20:23 Jesus cannot do it as the decision is his fathers
• At Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ said: “But of that day or that hour [of God’s coming execution of judgment] no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
• (IF they were one…would they all 3 not know the day and time?)
• Psalms 110:1 LORD said to my Lord? Who is talking to who? Review the original translation for the answer
• Luke 22:29 I make a covenant with you, just like my father has made a covenant with me for the kingdom
• 1 john 4:14 the father sent his son as savior of the world
• John 2:16 stop making the house of my father the house of commerce
• John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
• 1 Cor 15:28 shows that Jesus will subject himself to God…Equal? Not according to this scripture.

Jesus, the Son of God, never claimed to be equal to or of the same substance as his Father. Rather, he said: “I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” John 14:28.

Jesus also told one of his followers at John 20:17: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”

What about the Holy Spirit? The bible clearly shows is not a person or being, or third part of the Trinity.

Early Christians “became filled with holy spirit,” and at Acts 2:1-4 & 17: God said: “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh.”

So the holy spirit is not part of a Trinity but is God’s active force. Is any of this important? Does it really matter?

So the next point to discuss, is can you really love someone who is impossible to know or understand?
Ask any Christian who believes in the Trinity to explain it, and many, even here have a hard time doing so, and also you may get different answers on it.
The doctrine of the Trinity, is not scriptural and is a barrier to knowing and loving God.

The bible teaches us at 1 Cor 14:33, that God is not a God of confusion.” ((American Standard Version)
He has not hidden his identity from us.
He wants us to know him. Jesus said at John 4:22: “We worship what we know.”

Just providing this info as food for thought, and if you believe otherwise, that is fine too, Like the Apostle Paul, who gave a sermon to the "unknown Greek God," I just post here to present other ideas...

I think you can love God because he first loved you. God is the one who draws one to the Son. Regardless of how we see this, salvation is still of the Lord. By trying to say your way is the only way, it puts you in the same boat as the Trinity and Oneness believers.

It's the Unity of the Oneness that we don't understand. The salvation part, most of us understand. We don't have to believe Jesus is anything other than God's Son. It matters not to God whom he calls.

So you can believe the Son is 1/3rd of the always being Godhead, The oneness af the Father incarnate, the adopted Son of God, or Michael, matters not. If God has bestowed His calling on you, and you believe Jesus died for your sins, then that gift of salvation is yours.

I would think that most new people called by God out of the small villages and islands, no very little about whether the Trinity way, the Oneness way, or any other way is correct. They only know Jesus died for their sins.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I once thought that when God elects someone he bestows upon them the knowledge of exactly how the unity of Him is with His son, and myself. I thought that God had revealed to me by revelation which way is true.
I now know that is wrong. I don't think we'll be able to understand that unity and oneness until Jesus returns and we see Jesus as he is and become like him. Jesus did want his disciples to share the unity that he shared with his Father.

I would agree that his Father is our Father and his God is our God. In that respect, we will eventually share some part of that unity. Exactly what that means hasn't been revealed to me either.

 

[j_seph]

J_Seph,
Again
Thorough research is your friend on many of the scriptures you noted the NWT Eliminated:
Acts 8:37
Some later Greek manuscripts and some ancient translations into other languages, with slight variations in wording, add:
“Philip said to him: ‘If you believe with all your heart, it is permissible.’ In reply he said: ‘I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.’”

However, these words do not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and are most likely not part of the original text of Acts.

Should they be in there IF not in many of the original manuscripts?

You don’t have to take my word for it... simply do your own research

I actually quoted what I had seen on a website. I have actually never sat down and dug deep. However in the 1568 Bishops Bible John 3:16 reads

For God so loued the worlde, that he gaue his only begotten sonne, that whosoeuer beleueth in hym, shoulde not perishe, but haue euerlastyng lyfe.

Just seems to me if the KJV reads pretty much identical to the 1568 which states "Only Begotten" not his only son and the bible also states we are children of God which would be contradicting to these other versions.

NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
NLT
For this is how God loved the world: He gave[a] his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
LEB
For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
NCV
God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Just for what it's worth, there's not ONE, ONE, credible Greek Scholar who would state that the JW translation is an accurate one.

I really enjoy it when they and the Mormons visit. I treat them with kindness just as if they were family, even sending them home with preserves and other home-made goodies. They bring up their points and I counter them with the facts they are not aware of regarding the fallacies of their beliefs. It must have been very effective. I actually had the Bishop of the local Mormon Church visit me after hosting two of his missionaries, sending them packing with some peach preserves, spiced apples and honey from our hive, and inviting them back to watch a college football game over a bible study. He said he would see to it that I was never bothered again by Mormon Missionaries and sadly I haven't been. That's been 5 years ago.

 

[kmh1031]

Simper Fi Dawg.

Interesting comment about Greek Scholars... although I don’t agree as many have commented positively on the NWT and I’m sure you can find those that say the opposite.

Truth is, if a “man” is rightly disposed for the truth, he can find Accurate Knowledge in any version of the Bible.

What version of the Bible then do you believe to be the most accurate then.?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Simper Fi Dawg.

Interesting comment about Greek Scholars... although I don’t agree as many have commented positively on the NWT and I’m sure you can find those that say the opposite.

Truth is, if a “man” is rightly disposed for the truth, he can find Accurate Knowledge in any version of the Bible.

What version of the Bible then do you believe to be the most accurate then.?

I’ll stand by my statement. Most translations are accurate in that their goal is to MAINTAIN the original meaning. The NWT is the only version I’m aware which was translated with the specific purpose of CHANGING the meaning, and they did. It was changed to conform to CTRs teachings. Those facts are not debatable.

 

[kmh1031]

I understand your comment and belief
Regarding changing...Any idea or comment on why 90% of translations today have removed Gods original name: YHWH, (English letters) Jehovah in English
When it was in the Bible/manuscripts over 7000 times?
Ps 83:18 in many bibles still today.
Apparently God wanted his name known?

Looking back at mNy bibles before the 1900s it was in a majority of them. Not many today although some KVV are restoring it.

In many it is only referenced with LORD and Jesus is lord.
For instance look at Ps110:1
“The LORD said to my lord”
Doesn’t make senE that way.
So on the change point... that is a major change to leave Gods name out.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I’ll stand by my statement. Most translations are accurate in that their goal is to MAINTAIN the original meaning. The NWT is the only version I’m aware which was translated with the specific purpose of CHANGING the meaning, and they did. It was changed to conform to CTRs teachings. Those facts are not debatable.

Please explain what a CTR is. Thanks

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I understand your comment and belief
Regarding changing...Any idea or comment on why 90% of translations today have removed Gods original name: YHWH, (English letters) Jehovah in English
When it was in the Bible/manuscripts over 7000 times?
Ps 83:18 in many bibles still today.
Apparently God wanted his name known?

Looking back at mNy bibles before the 1900s it was in a majority of them. Not many today although some KVV are restoring it.

In many it is only referenced with LORD and Jesus is lord.
For instance look at Ps110:1
“The LORD said to my lord”
Doesn’t make senE that way.
So on the change point... that is a major change to leave Gods name out.

Just curious. Do you think a God who sacrificed his son to forgive even the most heinous sins of a repentant sinner is gonna balk because that man mispronounced his name. God sees a mans heart. Don’t let legalism, rituals, and hair splitting blind you to seeing His.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Please explain what a CTR is. Thanks

Charles Taze Russel

 

[kmh1031]

the miss pronunciation of his name is not the issue.
That has been lost...
It is the complete
removal of his name from the Bible and not recognizing him as the Almighty God. ps 83;18
Also Note Pro 18:10
Look at many translations and you will find perhaps Jehovah.
“ The name of Jehovah is a strong Tower and into it the righteous run and is given protection.”

So if we are calling on the wrong name will we be given protection?

It is NOT by accident that his name hs been removed from the Bible to cause billions to focus elsewhere.
Did not Jesus himself say... “I have made your name known”?
If it was not important why would Jesus say that?
Also is that not the 2nd line on the Lord’s Prayer??
Not important? I think it is.. Jesus thought so.
Who do we pray to? Who did Jesus pray to?
Who sent him?

It is not a simple oh well that is not important...

So back to the original post... changing the Bible?
We have restored Gods name in the 7000 places while others have removed it..

And many more corrections based on new found Scrolls accredited by many archeological experts

Your call... just pointing out a few things to consider

 

[SemperFiDawg]

the miss pronunciation of his name is not the issue.
That has been lost...
It is the complete
removal of his name from the Bible and not recognizing him as the Almighty God. ps 83;18
Also Note Pro 18:10
Look at many translations and you will find perhaps Jehovah.
“ The name of Jehovah is a strong Tower and into it the righteous run and is given protection.”

So if we are calling on the wrong name will we be given protection?

It is NOT by accident that his name hs been removed from the Bible to cause billions to focus elsewhere.
Did not Jesus himself say... “I have made your name known”?
If it was not important why would Jesus say that?
Also is that not the 2nd line on the Lord’s Prayer??
Not important? I think it is.. Jesus thought so.
Who do we pray to? Who did Jesus pray to?
Who sent him?

It is not a simple oh well that is not important...

So back to the original post... changing the Bible?
We have restored Gods name in the 7000 places while others have removed it..

And many more corrections based on new found Scrolls accredited by many archeological experts

Your call... just pointing out a few things to consider

This is the biggest fallacy people fall for when it comes to God; thinking they can do something good enough to impress God, to earn their salvation. It's a sure sign in anyone that they have missed the entire purpose of Christ. JW are known to preach works based salvation among their other misgivings. Tell me Brother, do you think God respects your spelling and pronunciation skills, or the spirit of your heart toward him and your fellow man. I'm afraid you are badly mistaken in your hair splitting views. May I humbly suggest you do yourself a favor and talk to some mainline Protestant preachers, Baptist, Methodist, COG etc. not on specifics but just salvation. I feel you will agree that Salvation is the most important issue will face on this earth. Don't you think you owe it to yourself to make sure you have it right. Keep this in mind, If you are not 100% sure that if you died today you would go to Heaven, then you don't have it right. That's not what I say, it's what the Bible says. You need to give that it's share of weight in the issue.

 

[j_seph]

So do JW still sacrifice animals to please God? I am thankful that God sent his only begotten son for me. The one and only sacrifice that I needed. The places I have taken him and the sins I have placed on him for myself alone are embarrassing and somewhat shameful but to know he still loves me and has not forsaken me is humbling.

With only 144,000

The 'anointed' Based on their understanding of scriptures such as Revelation 14:1-4, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians go to heaven to rule with Christ in the kingdom of God.

from what google says that JW believe will go to heaven.
Another search says there are over 8,000,000 JW around the world. If that is based on your works then there is a lot of competition to get there and gives each one a 1.8% chance of getting there. Glad my KJV bible has the promise of whosoever.

 

[kmh1031]

Thanks for the comments, in response, and suggestion to talk to other religions.

And yes we firmly believe in Salvation: John 17:3...That is a great salvation scripture and helps us see we need to take in knowledge of Jesus AND the one who sent him, Jehovah God.

And to your suggestion about checking out other religions, actually my family and I used to be Baptist, and my wife's family Methodist.

For years we went to church, listened, and Christians do...

yet over time, we were frustrated, fed up, with all the incorrectness we saw
Gay ministers, celebration of Pagan Holidays, politics in the pulpit...as we know that is not from the bible, and not following the teachings, commands of Jesus and God.
Thus we started looking....
we found out, that

None of the early Christians were involved in politics, celebrated any of the holidays at the time...and they knew the condition of the dead that it is not one of torment...
Note Mary's comment to Jesus about Lazarus:
Lord I know he will rise on the LAST day...(so he was in the grave, not someplace else) Jesus told her he was "sleeping" after 4 days in the grave...

None of the ministers, pastors were able to answer,
what is the condition of the dead (accurately from he bible)
Why do bad things happen to good people
IF god is in charge of this world, why doesn't he do something?
Why so much crime and violence?

Through our study of the bible we learned the answers to these questions and more...
We also learned that once one is dead, they are forgiven of their sins, not tormented...Romans 6:7. for those who have died have been acquitted of their sins...

Also, we learned that their is a hope for the meek, and the earth, read for example Ps 37...who are these people, and if all go to heaven and ****...who are the meek that inherit the earth?

Tons more...and thank you for your concern and comments....

 

[BeerThirty]

Be ready, they've got your address, expect a knock on the door in the near future. I normally don't answer the door. If you're daring enough to open the door, make sure you're prepared. These folks do nothing but train to overcome every objection you're gonna throw at them.