Jesus actually died?

Thread starter #21
Again, regardless of Christ's divinity he was 100% man. He had to be to pay the price. How did his human mind, body, and spirit die and resurrect? Was he born a mortal man? Did he actually die? He had to because he overcame death. He was physically raised from the dead. He defeated death. He was a mortal man made immortal. Regardless of his divinity. He had to be mortal in order to overcome death. He had to be made immortal by the immortal Father.

Jesus overcame the death part for me. I don't have to die. I was a mortal who has become immortal. Yet Jesus resurrected physically.
To give my soul immortality? So that I can resurrect spiritually?

We will eventually see him as he is and become like him.
 
Thread starter #22
We die physically, but no, our spirit doesn’t die. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. Weird to think that isn't it?

I'm still in my tent but thought I was spiritually with the Lord.

Paul is a bit hard to follow sometimes.

“Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on in corruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on in corruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’ ”

Here Paul makes it sound like we must wait for our immortality. Like in
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Again, regardless of Christ's divinity he was 100% man. He had to be to pay the price. How did his human mind, body, and spirit die and resurrect? Was he born a mortal man? Did he actually die? He had to because he overcame death. He was physically raised from the dead. He defeated death. He was a mortal man made immortal. Regardless of his divinity. He had to be mortal in order to overcome death. He had to be made immortal by the immortal Father.

Jesus overcame the death part for me. I don't have to die. I was a mortal who has become immortal. Yet Jesus resurrected physically.
To give my soul immortality? So that I can resurrect spiritually?

We will eventually see him as he is and become like him.
His body laid under death for a time, that He might conquer death.

Luke 23:43

And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Therefore to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord!

Hebrews 2:14-18

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Art, I believe you are looking for God in too many ways. It really is as simple as the Gospel proclaims. You don't have to search for God in all the wrong places. If and when you get serious then call upon His name and be real with Jesus. Here is Jesus' call to you.

Matthew 11:28-29
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Matthew 7:7-12
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Being religious will not save you, only Christ can do that. It is not what we do that earns our salvation, but what Christ has already done for us, all we have to do is believe and accept it as a gift. Then continue in the grace He has provided for us, and walk out our own salvation with fear and trembling!
 
If y
Again, regardless of Christ's divinity he was 100% man. He had to be to pay the price. How did his human mind, body, and spirit die and resurrect? Was he born a mortal man? Did he actually die? He had to because he overcame death. He was physically raised from the dead. He defeated death. He was a mortal man made immortal. Regardless of his divinity. He had to be mortal in order to overcome death. He had to be made immortal by the immortal Father.

Jesus overcame the death part for me. I don't have to die. I was a mortal who has become immortal. Yet Jesus resurrected physically.
To give my soul immortality? So that I can resurrect spiritually?

We will eventually see him as he is and become like him.
you can't be any part man, and also be God. "God is not a man, that he should lie". You can be part white and part black.... But you can't be God,, and also be a man. He did not raise himself from the dead. He had to be dead, or we are still in our sins. He was under the same curse as the rest of us regardless of whether he was sin less or not. He had faith on the cross that God would raise him from the dead. All that Adam lost, Jesus regained, first for himself, and for us. Us, being those in the family.
 
Thread starter #27
Art, I believe you are looking for God in too many ways. It really is as simple as the Gospel proclaims. You don't have to search for God in all the wrong places. If and when you get serious then call upon His name and be real with Jesus. Here is Jesus' call to you.

Matthew 11:28-29
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Matthew 7:7-12
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Being religious will not save you, only Christ can do that. It is not what we do that earns our salvation, but what Christ has already done for us, all we have to do is believe and accept it as a gift. Then continue in the grace He has provided for us, and walk out our own salvation with fear and trembling!
I understand the free gift of salvation and not of works. I'm just trying to see everything beyond that. Beyond John 3:16.
The history, etc. Who Jesus really is. Who we really are. How close to the unity we will become. Back to the likeness of God's image.
How much of it all is spiritual vs physical.

In doing so I would like to know what part of Jesus died. What type of death did he conquer? Realizing that there is a future death that Paul refers to being done away with as one of the last events within time.
 
Thread starter #28
If y

you can't be any part man, and also be God. "God is not a man, that he should lie". You can be part white and part black.... But you can't be God,, and also be a man. He did not raise himself from the dead. He had to be dead, or we are still in our sins. He was under the same curse as the rest of us regardless of whether he was sin less or not. He had faith on the cross that God would raise him from the dead. All that Adam lost, Jesus regained, first for himself, and for us. Us, being those in the family.
Couldn't God still be his biological Father? Maybe God created his male DNA to make him human and then placed his pre-existing spirit into Jesus. A spirit that has always been with the Father but not the Father. Also not equal to the Father's spirit. The Father sent the Son. The Father resurrected the Son.
I'm not saying Jesus is God but that he may have always been with God as an eternal separate entity.
 
Thread starter #29
I understand the free gift of salvation and not of works. I'm just trying to see everything beyond that. Beyond John 3:16.
The history, etc. Who Jesus really is. Who we really are. How close to the unity we will become. Back to the likeness of God's image.
How much of it all is spiritual vs physical.

In doing so I would like to know what part of Jesus died. What type of death did he conquer? Realizing that there is a future death that Paul refers to being done away with as one of the last events within time.
Then you think Jesus "became" the Son at his birth? Adoptive by the Father. The Father giving him all authority and power to defeat death?

Similar to Incarnational Sonship vs Eternal Sonship. Yet you see it as not any type of incarnation.
Aren't there verses about an incarnation of some type? Many don't believe the Son always existed but they still believe in some type of incarnation. Some type of divine intervention from God in the birth of Jesus.

Some type of pre-existance in Word if only in the mind of God. Some type of "beyond time" existence between the Father and Son.

Jesus did have some type of pre-existing relationship with his Father before he was born a man.
 
Thread starter #30
Amazing how the Trinity believers vs the Oneness believers try to make it all fit. It's like the Preterist vs the Futurist or the Freewill vs the Predestination. It's like the Easy Believism vs the Lordship Salvation camps.

What doesn't help is when scripture is interpreted by a biased person. Words suddenly have new meanings. The same word having a different meaning in one vs compared to the same word meaning in another verse.
 
Couldn't God still be his biological Father? Maybe God created his male DNA to make him human and then placed his pre-existing spirit into Jesus. A spirit that has always been with the Father but not the Father. Also not equal to the Father's spirit. The Father sent the Son. The Father resurrected the Son.
I'm not saying Jesus is God but that he may have always been with God as an eternal separate entity.
Note, not directed at Arts beliefs, but directed at the beliefs we are discussing.
Much of what makes a man, a man, is not just his title. Men, breath air, have a heart beat and are born through conception. Men, did not prexist, men are not any part God. If the third person of the God head came upon Mary, why then is the HS not the Father rather than the Father, the 1st person of the Godhead? Did he just deliver the Fathers DNA? Does God have sperm? . Are we crazy... to ever think that God stole Josephs bride a used the HS to inseminate Mary. That she was the mother of God. What a mess. Sure, he placed his Spirit on him... at his baptismal, when the dove came down. Everyone ignores this because it don't fit their belief. Was it just a show, did it really happen. If you say yes, then, he was not God. Why would God need an anointing from God. Did he receive the HS ???? What a train wreck.
 
Art, I'm going to refrain from posting here. Although I am a believer, I will no longer post religion issues except in the AAA forum. These guys need a place of their own without opposition of beliefs.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
I understand the free gift of salvation and not of works. I'm just trying to see everything beyond that. Beyond John 3:16.
The history, etc. Who Jesus really is. Who we really are. How close to the unity we will become. Back to the likeness of God's image.
How much of it all is spiritual vs physical.

In doing so I would like to know what part of Jesus died. What type of death did he conquer? Realizing that there is a future death that Paul refers to being done away with as one of the last events within time.
Jesus really is who He said He is. He is both fully man and fully God! He has been given full authority from the Father after His physical resurrection. He is the focal point of all the Bible, both Old and New Testament. We are made in God's image as in we have a spirit that will never die.
 
Art, I'm going to refrain from posting here. Although I am a believer, I will no longer post religion issues except in the AAA forum. These guys need a place of their own without opposition of beliefs.
Both your and Art’s views truthfully fit better down there. I honestly don’t see how either of you self identify as believers when you both discard so much fundamental doctrine.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Whether a man's experience is valid to the body of Christ at large is not immaterial except in this, it must be of no matter to the man experiencing.

What does that mean? Simply?

A man's testimony cannot be reliant upon acceptance by other men, and to the extent it is...malleable by either "amen" (made to himself more valid by acceptance) or rebuke (shake-able by refusal) it then shows itself as that which is subject to opinions. The process of how this is accomplished, as with anything in and of Christ, is all of the Lord.

Does it sound contradictory? Of course.
The question of "must it be so?" Is no less, of course.

Unless a man is made able to bear being led through much, if not all, contradiction of and by others, he will begin to see how little true testimony he has of the Lord Jesus Christ. Regardless of how men view this contention, even by objection is of no matter; the Lord Jesus has made plain to his disciples His life is, in all, given as experiential, with nothing to be left to speculation or "theory".

If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. Remember the word that I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word,they will keep yours as well. But they will treat you like this on account of My name, because they do not know the One who sent Me.

This does seem to be at odds with this:

And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Yes. There is a time for that. And God knows all of a man's times and seasons. A time when what appears revelation to the man is for the "laying out" before others esteemed seniors/elders...but just as surely there is the always working of shaking what can be shaken...so that what is unshakable may remain.

Does this sound as though the man may inure himself to rebuke and correction, by his own will to be so? God forbid. But the way God establishes a man in truth, and the way of other things, is all of different. God knows who, and what, trembles at His word (seeing the work of Christ being accomplished in such), and what remains as reed blown by winds of man. God knows.

No man need yield to another man's experience. But God knows if there be resistance, the source of such. God knows the heart that is earnestly engaged in the trying of spirit and that which is simply ready in all suspicion of others. God knows this because the man himself is very aware of how he himself, in himself, is in the necessity of being tried. Here presumption and faith get winnowed from one another, for the man has learned, and is learning, to not trust himself to anything except the confirmation of the Lord by His spirit. It is, as in all, seemingly contradictory. How what may accept its own unsurety, may be made...sure.

And so the apostle (who wrote many things) wrote also these.

And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

And:

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

That humbling, that humiliation Paul speaks of, is the taking to himself of such insufficiency in delivery. The willingness to accept before God that what he may see as fault or lack be laid to his account. But he also spoke this, in no less a confidence, that such grieving as accomplished upon his face before the Almighty will no less be resolved in a strength coming as he rises from his face to deal with sin.

Rarely might we see, until conviction comes, that speculations...of which we may be convinced are our welcome domain to inhabit and explore, and pronounce, have a desultory effect. Is anything off the table for question? God forbid. But do we learn that in many matters, these things cannot be left to man for resolution or light, but must be earnestly sought before God alone (where nothing is "off the table" if from the heart)...and that if presented to man and before man is then presented tacitly to an acceptance of what "man" might say about things.

Will another man be able to assure any other man of those things constituted to the essentials of our faith? Will a man accept to himself, can a man accept to himself, upon the word of another the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? Is such established in, or by, any consensus? Or might the man recognize that in the utter foundations of all, only God is able to give such assurance? If the man recognizes all inability to convince himself, of himself, (regardless of disposition toward the gospel) will he think another, no more "God" than himself is equipped to such proving?

This, in itself sounds contradictory. That is perfect. There is nothing, and may I repeat of my testimony, nothing, to which the God of all is given in more patience and devotion than to the proving before all men and creation (with disciples to be the "first" in experience) that the Son of His love, Jesus Christ, is both risen and Lord of all. And no less in that, that His sufficiency in all things to man, is both perfect, and perfected.

Must we suffer...shaking? Only what can be, will be. This experience...is real. It is all and only that which...is. Real. The man should not be shaken...in knowing he shall be shaken. He will be pressed to a testimony through many tribulations experienced in God and His Christ to his very essence, not that he be made unsure (though doubt may come)...but that he may be made sure. In the deepest part he will be confronted with such probing of query "what do I really believe?"
And this is not for the disqualifying...but necessary to a qualifying.

"Who do you say that I am?"

Happy is the man who is learning to hold fast to the testimony of Jesus Christ...even in the earth. He will be led past any and all unhappiness with himself (and others) rightly eclipsed by that light shining in a dark place...rising.
 
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Israel

Senior Member
Art, I'm going to refrain from posting here. Although I am a believer, I will no longer post religion issues except in the AAA forum. These guys need a place of their own without opposition of beliefs.
There is no opposition I have not found necessary, despite my sensibilities while enduring them.

Likewise might we learn in what seems experience of opposition...it is only we ourselves...opposing our very own selves?
 
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