Jesus as a Sacrifice??

[bullethead]

Which one what??? It’s not even relevant. It was a Prophet (consider John????) that was raised up from out of that people.

But in a sense I guess it can be relevant if using the Torah “rules” as why Jesus can’t be the Messiah.

What’s relevant is the age old argument of new rules and new religion to get away from the Torah to make Jesus the Messiah after being told by the Torah a Prophet would come and give Gods commandments.

John?
In Jewish religion prophecy can only happen when Israel is ruled by god, which only happens when the Jews are in control of the country. The Romans were in control of Israel at that time. The whole NT was under Roman rule.
Lots of people have prophetic visions , John had prophetic visions, but he was not a prophet.

They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” ~ John 1:21

Jesus did not meet the criteria so John coming before him was not the prophet the OT was talking about.
That person has yet to appear.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The Torah seemed to think that God thought highly of them.

When starting a new religion, it would make sense to try to discredit the old religion, no?

He does;
"And so all Israel will be saved."

Romans 11:27
"And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

"regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs."

"How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"

 

[Israel]

John?
In Jewish religion prophecy can only happen when Israel is ruled by god, which only happens when the Jews are in control of the country. The Romans were in control of Israel at that time. The whole NT was under Roman rule.
Lots of people have prophetic visions , John had prophetic visions, but he was not a prophet.

They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” ~ John 1:21

Jesus did not meet the criteria so John coming before him was not the prophet the OT was talking about.
That person has yet to appear.

What is it then?
How is it then?
Is it recorded, as you speak, (in the book of John) to dis-annul John (the Baptizer) by John the writer of John 1:21? And if so...if this be found as ground of truth (by you) to use for such dis-annuling, how do you not then receive the total of the writer of the book of John's testimony?
If you find of him a satisfactory recorder to the negation of a thing...how do you not find him satisfactory to all he does affirm?

Jesus knew something of John (the Baptizer) that even he did not know of himself.
(Just as you and I are known)

What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written: ‘Behold, I will send My messenger ahead of You, who will prepare Your way before You.’ Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist.

Here is a strange thing:

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I am made glad to not find you lukewarm about Jesus Christ.

 

[bullethead]

What is it then?
How is it then?
Is it recorded, as you speak, (in the book of John) to dis-annul John (the Baptizer) by John the writer of John 1:21? And if so...if this be found as ground of truth (by you) to use for such dis-annuling, how do you not then receive the total of the writer of the book of John's testimony?
If you find of him a satisfactory recorder to the negation of a thing...how do you not find him satisfactory to all he does affirm?

Jesus knew something of John (the Baptizer) that even he did not know of himself.
(Just as you and I are known)

What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written: ‘Behold, I will send My messenger ahead of You, who will prepare Your way before You.’ Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist.

Here is a strange thing:

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I am made glad to not find you lukewarm about Jesus Christ.

I just use the information available from the writings and the name assigned to the writings. Neither of which have to be true in order to discuss what is written.

Much is written about The Hulk and Spiderman and using those writings we can make a case for who is or is not the BEST superhero. A person can certainly make a case that one arrived before the other. We can use the foretold dialog from previous writings that gives clues as to who may be what and for those writings what is written could be extremely accurate but that accuracy only exists between the pages contained within those writings as it holds true NOWHERE else but in those works.
Does that rule out ALL the other supposed Superheroes that may be in fact (again according to more made up writings) more qualified to the BEST?
Does any of that writing really affirm one or the other outside of that realm?
Does either or any actually speak the words that Stan Lee gave them?
Does ANY of it actually make it true beyond the front and back cover no matter how many kids dress up as one or the other and pretend to sling webs or SMASH?

One cap full, swish for 30 seconds, spit, repeat if necessary. Enjoy your minty treat.

 

[bullethead]

What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written: ‘Behold, I will send My messenger ahead of You, who will prepare Your way before You.’ Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist.

Wasn't Jesus born of a Woman?

And does the OT/Torah state that someone would be MORE than a prophet?
More than a prophet is not a prophet is it? Or are we talking Prophet Plus, Super Prophet, 4 star Prophet...
I need this cleared up a little.

 

[Spotlite]

Wasn't Jesus born of a Woman?

Before or after John........

I haven’t eaten the greatest hamburger in the world until I’ve eaten the greatest hamburger in the world.......

 

[bullethead]

“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.” ~ Malachi 4:5-6

They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” ~ John 1:21

 

[bullethead]

Before or after John........

I haven’t eaten the greatest hamburger in the world until I’ve eaten the greatest hamburger in the world.......

So are you saying that there is always a chance that a better burger could be out there and the one you eat is just the best one you have had up until that point?
Kind of like those ancient guys were the best candidates at that time, but it turns out that there may certainly be a better burger out there?

 

[660griz]

Before or after John........

I haven’t eaten the greatest hamburger in the world until I’ve eaten the greatest hamburger in the world.......

Legend has it that John was about 6 months older than Jesus.
Mary and Elizabeth hung out together and traded getting away with cheating secrets. Elizabeth hid her pregnancy for 5 months. Mary just said, "God did it".
So, the time of the utterance of "more than a prophet" is of importance.

 

[bullethead]

What is it then?
How is it then?
Is it recorded, as you speak, (in the book of John) to dis-annul John (the Baptizer) by John the writer of John 1:21? And if so...if this be found as ground of truth (by you) to use for such dis-annuling, how do you not then receive the total of the writer of the book of John's testimony?
If you find of him a satisfactory recorder to the negation of a thing...how do you not find him satisfactory to all he does affirm?

Jesus knew something of John (the Baptizer) that even he did not know of himself.
(Just as you and I are known)

What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written: ‘Behold, I will send My messenger ahead of You, who will prepare Your way before You.’ Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist.

Here is a strange thing:

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I am made glad to not find you lukewarm about Jesus Christ.

In Christianity and/or Judaism, do they believe in Reincarnation or Resurrection?

 

[Spotlite]

Legend has it that John was about 6 months older than Jesus.
Mary and Elizabeth hung out together and traded getting away with cheating secrets. Elizabeth hid her pregnancy for 5 months. Mary just said, "God did it".
So, the time of the utterance of "more than a prophet" is of importance.

I’m just saying I have a younger cousin that was the greatest grass cutter known until I bought a lawnmower.

 

[bullethead]

I’m just saying I have a younger cousin that was the greatest grass cutter known until I bought a lawnmower.

Are there better lawn mowers available now or is it possible that better ones will be made in the future?

 

[Spotlite]

So are you saying that there is always a chance that a better burger could be out there and the one you eat is just the best one you have had up until that point?
Kind of like those ancient guys were the best candidates at that time, but it turns out that there may certainly be a better burger out there?

My comment was more in relation of your comparison that both John and Jesus were born of a woman. Regardless of who’s older / younger....Johns ministry began before Jesus’s did.......as pertaining to Israel’s post, “among those born of women there HAS risen no one greater than John the Baptist”.........that’s what that’s saying, it’s not eliminating John.

 

[Spotlite]

Are there better lawn mowers available now or is it possible that better ones will be made in the future?

I’m sure there are many out there.......and more to come.......but nothing runs like a Deere......

 

[bullethead]

My comment was more in relation of your comparison that both John and Jesus were born of a woman. Regardless of who’s older / younger....Johns ministry began before Jesus’s did.......as pertaining to Israel’s post, “among those born of women there HAS risen no one greater than John the Baptist”.........that’s what that’s saying, it’s not eliminating John.

I agree. But,
Jesus is saying that John is greater than even Jesus since they are both born of Women. Age had nothing to do with my answer.

 

[Madman]

Guys, if the message is SO clear, why all the different interpretations among the like minded?

What different interpretations has the church put forth?

 

[bullethead]

What different interpretations has the church put forth?

Their Interpretation.
I find them no more closer to or have any better connection with a god than you, me or anyone else. Am I incorrect?

 

[Madman]

Their Interpretation.
I find them no more closer to or have any better connection with a god than you, me or anyone else. Am I incorrect?

As I have said before, there is almost no difference in interpretation within the church, you can point to various protestant groups who disagree but their teaching comes some 1500 years after the origin of the religion.

As to "connection with god", the question must first be answered as to whether there is a "god" or evidence for a "god". If one's answer is no, then there is no need for them to pursue "god". I happen to believe there is plenty of evidence for "an unmoved mover", therefore I began to investigate what that "unmoved mover" might be.

 

[bullethead]

As I have said before, there is almost no difference in interpretation within the church, you can point to various protestant groups who disagree but their teaching comes some 1500 years after the origin of the religion.

As to "connection with god", the question must first be answered as to whether there is a "god" or evidence for a "god". If one's answer is no, then there is no need for them to pursue "god". I happen to believe there is plenty of evidence for "an unmoved mover", therefore I began to investigate what that "unmoved mover" might be.

If there is almost no difference, what IS different?

There is not enough known about what happened within the "Church" from when Jesus died and Peter took the reigns to the time Christianity became "official" in Rome and the Organized Church started.
It went from underground to mandatory and that time in between is not well documented.


I agree with you on the establishment of whether or not a god exists AND that it is not a universal truth but an individual belief.

Do you think the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests are any closer to, or have a more direct line of communication to God than you do?

 

[Madman]

If there is almost no difference, what IS different?

Church in the east uses leavened bread for mass, church in the west uses unleavened bread, mainly because leavened bread molded in the humidity. Some disputes over the kalendar. Was the Pope the chief among equals. Nothing theological. The Coptic church got ticked that everyone was not listening to their man Cyril so the left. That has been agreed upon as a language barrier problem.

There is not enough known about what happened within the "Church" from when Jesus died and Peter took the reigns to the time Christianity became "official" in Rome and the Organized Church started.
It went from underground to mandatory and that time in between is not well documented.

We know plenty. Justin the Martyr wrote on the first century. Plenty of writings from the church fathers, the councils, the didaca. Lots of writings out there.

I agree with you on the establishment of whether or not a god exists AND that it is not a universal truth but an individual belief.

creation will not get someone to a redeemer but I believe it can get them to a first cause. That is the route many of us took.

Do you think the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests are any closer to, or have a more direct line of communication to God than belief.

I dont know. I believe they spend more time praying, mediating, studying, etc. At least I hope the do. Our priests and bishops have always given sound council to me and my family. I believe God is active in creation but my beliefs are different than many on here. Go figure.