Jesus Christ Is Not the Father or the Holy Gost

Thread starter #103
I think most Trinitarians would agree that Jesus is the name given to the second person of the Godhead when he became a man.

The only ones that believe the Father became Jesus are of the Oneness belief.

What was the second person of the Godhead known as before his incarnation? Son perhaps? Christ?
TRINITY. This means the union of three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to individuality (1 John 5:7, 8; Dan. 7:9-14; Matt. 3:16, 17; 28:19; Acts 7:56-59).
 
Thread starter #104
Jesus Christ Is Not the Father or the Holy Ghost

The Bible never speaks of the Father dying, but it does say that the Son died (Rom. 5:10; Heb. 6:6; John 3:16-18). The Son died in the same sense that other men die--the inner man left the outer man (James 2:26). This proves that the Father and the Son were two separate persons.
 
Thread starter #105
Jesus was "the only begotten of the Father" and "his only begotten Son," and He had to be separate persons from the Father in order to be begotten by the Father, and the Father had to be a separate person from Jesus in order to beget Him (John 1:4, 18; 3:16-18; 31-36; 1 John 5:1). No person can beget himself, or be begotten by himself, and no person can be his own father or son. Neither can any person beget part of himself , or be begotten by part of himself.
 
Jesus was "the only begotten of the Father" and "his only begotten Son," and He had to be separate persons from the Father in order to be begotten by the Father, and the Father had to be a separate person from Jesus in order to beget Him (John 1:4, 18; 3:16-18; 31-36; 1 John 5:1). No person can beget himself, or be begotten by himself, and no person can be his own father or son. Neither can any person beget part of himself , or be begotten by part of himself.
But you do believe these three separate persons are a part of the one God, correct? The unity of the three separate persons is still just one God, right?
 
Thread starter #107
Many statements in the gospel of John prove that Jesus did not claim to be the Father, but He did say that God was His Father and His God (John 5:8-45; 10:18-36; 14:28; 20:17; Rev. 3:12); that God worked only through Him, and that He COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF (John 5:19, 30); that He not only COULD NOT, but that He DID NOT DO ANYTHING OF HIMSELF (John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28; 12:49, 50); that He did only the Father's will and live BY THE FATHER, as men are to do His will and live BY HIM (John 6:57); and that the work of God was to believe on the whom the Father had sent (John 6:29; 5:18; 8:54; 14:1).

He said that His doctrine was not His, but the Father's (John 7:16, 17; 8:26, 38; 10:18; 12:49, 50; 14:10, 11; 17:8, 14) and that if anyone would do the will of God he should know that He did not come to SPEAK OF HIMSELF, but that he spoke of the Father who had sent Him (John 7:16-18).

He claimed that His message was true because He did not SPEAK OF HIMSELF but that He spoke of the Father (John7:18; 5:30-38; 14:10, 11), that He spoke only what He had HEARD FROM THE FATHER (John 8:26-28, 38-40), that He taught BY THE FATHER and that His teaching was not of Himself (John 8:28), that He did not PLEASE HIMSELF, but He lived to please the Father (John 8:29), that He was the "Son" of the house and not the "Father" of it (John 8:35, 36; Heb. 3:6), and that He had THE SAME RELATION TO THE FATHER that the Jews had to their father the devil (John 8:16, 35-44; 9:4).
 
Many statements in the gospel of John prove that Jesus did not claim to be the Father, but He did say that God was His Father and His God (John 5:8-45; 10:18-36; 14:28; 20:17; Rev. 3:12); that God worked only through Him, and that He COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF (John 5:19, 30); that He not only COULD NOT, but that He DID NOT DO ANYTHING OF HIMSELF (John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28; 12:49, 50); that He did only the Father's will and live BY THE FATHER, as men are to do His will and live BY HIM (John 6:57); and that the work of God was to believe on the whom the Father had sent (John 6:29; 5:18; 8:54; 14:1).

He said that His doctrine was not His, but the Father's (John 7:16, 17; 8:26, 38; 10:18; 12:49, 50; 14:10, 11; 17:8, 14) and that if anyone would do the will of God he should know that He did not come to SPEAK OF HIMSELF, but that he spoke of the Father who had sent Him (John 7:16-18).

He claimed that His message was true because He did not SPEAK OF HIMSELF but that He spoke of the Father (John7:18; 5:30-38; 14:10, 11), that He spoke only what He had HEARD FROM THE FATHER (John 8:26-28, 38-40), that He taught BY THE FATHER and that His teaching was not of Himself (John 8:28), that He did not PLEASE HIMSELF, but He lived to please the Father (John 8:29), that He was the "Son" of the house and not the "Father" of it (John 8:35, 36; Heb. 3:6), and that He had THE SAME RELATION TO THE FATHER that the Jews had to their father the devil (John 8:16, 35-44; 9:4).
In your own words how do you view this Father and Son relationship? If the Father was the God of the Son, the Son did nothing but the will of his Father, and was only spreading the message of his Father, was he in fact God the Son?
 
Thread starter #109
He taught that He, Himself, honored the Father as all men should (John 8:49); that He did not seek HIS OWN GLORY, but that there was "one" (not Himself, but ANOTHER the Father) that honored Him and sought His glory (John 8:50, 54; 12:26-28; 14:12-15; 17:1-5, 10); that He and the Father knew each other, but they were not each other (John 8:55; 10:15); that the Father loved Him for His unselfishness (it takes two people to love and be loved, (John 10:17, 18); that He had received commandments from the Father, and they were not His own (John 10:18; 12:49, 50; 15:10); and that the Father gave Him His disciples (John 10:29; 17:1-25).He further claimed that He was equal to the Father as to deity and some things, but not equal in other things (Mark 13:32; John 5:17-39; 8:13-19, 29-42; 19:18, 24-29; Acts 1:7; 1 Cor. 11:3; Rev. 1:1); that He was not a "Spirit" being like His Father (Luke 24:39; John 4:24; Phil. 3:21); that He and the Father were in each other (united as one) in the same sense He and the believers were one (John 10:38; 14:10, 11, 23; 17:11, 21-23; 2 Cor. 5:17); and that He was the only way to the Father (John14:6). Such simple language as that in all the above-listed passages cannot be understood except in connection with two separate persons.
 
Thread starter #110
Jesus said that if He bore witness "of Himself" and if He was the only one that did bare witness, His testimony would not be true and He would not expect men to believe it any more than civil courts would accept only one witness (John 5:21-23, 36; 6:38; 7:16, 17, 28; 8:13-19, 37, 42, 54; 12:44, 49, 50; 14:10, 11; 17:1-25). God repeatedly said in both testaments that "in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established" (Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6, 7; 19:15; 10:28, 29; 12:1; Rev. 11:5). Would God make a fixed law to establish truth by two or three separate witnesses and then break His own law and expect men to have confidence in Him? He would have no grounds to punish man for rejection of God's witness if God were only one person. We not only have to believe that Jesus was only one of two or three separate witnesses as He plainly states, or make Him untrue, but we have plain Scripture stating that "there are three" that bear witness, "the Father, the word [Jesus], and the Holy Ghost" (1 John5:7, 8 ).
 
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Romans 15:6
so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Thread starter #113
Jesus continued by saying that He had greater proof or witness than John the Baptist had two witnesses, the Father and the Holy Ghost (John1:31-34, 5:36). John did not have the miracles to confirm his word as did Jesus, who had the same two witnesses that John had plus the miracles (John 2:11, 23; 3:2; 4:54; 5:20, 36; 7:2, 26; 7:31; 9:16; 10:25-37, 41; 11:42-47; 14:10-12; 15:24). When Jesus said "I am not alone, but I [one person] and the Father [another person] that sent me" and is with me bear witness, He simply stated that there were more persons in the Godhead than He, thus fulfilling the word of God concerning more than one witness to establish a fact. He plainly said that the two witnesses in this testimony were the Father and Himself. "I am one that bears witness of myself, and the Father that sent me [another person] beareth witness of me" (John 8:13-18, 29; 16:32). Again, in John 8:29 He said "The Father hath not left me alone" and in John 16:32, "every man to his own and leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me." What could be more clear in proving two distinct persons, called "the Father" and "the Son" both of them equally God? On the other hand, what foolish statements these are if Jesus is the only person in the Godhead.
 
Jesus continued by saying that He had greater proof or witness than John the Baptist had two witnesses, the Father and the Holy Ghost (John1:31-34, 5:36). John did not have the miracles to confirm his word as did Jesus, who had the same two witnesses that John had plus the miracles (John 2:11, 23; 3:2; 4:54; 5:20, 36; 7:2, 26; 7:31; 9:16; 10:25-37, 41; 11:42-47; 14:10-12; 15:24). When Jesus said "I am not alone, but I [one person] and the Father [another person] that sent me" and is with me bear witness, He simply stated that there were more persons in the Godhead than He, thus fulfilling the word of God concerning more than one witness to establish a fact. He plainly said that the two witnesses in this testimony were the Father and Himself. "I am one that bears witness of myself, and the Father that sent me [another person] beareth witness of me" (John 8:13-18, 29; 16:32). Again, in John 8:29 He said "The Father hath not left me alone" and in John 16:32, "every man to his own and leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me." What could be more clear in proving two distinct persons, called "the Father" and "the Son" both of them equally God? On the other hand, what foolish statements these are if Jesus is the only person in the Godhead.
Is this some type of thread against "Jesus only" Oneness believers?
 
Thread starter #115
Is this some type of thread against "Jesus only" Oneness believers?
No just Bible to help people to know the truth, most are going to believe what they have been taught , I my self believe a lot of things that I was taught that was not right about Bible, but studying the Bible an praying to God to show me I learn different, I try to believe that way but I could not because it just would not match up to what the Word was saying. Do you believe what you believe because of being taught that by some one or by the way a church believes or has God revealed to you what you believe?
 
No just Bible to help people to know the truth, most are going to believe what they have been taught , I my self believe a lot of things that I was taught that was not right about Bible, but studying the Bible an praying to God to show me I learn different, I try to believe that way but I could not because it just would not match up to what the Word was saying. Do you believe what you believe because of being taught that by some one or by the way a church believes or has God revealed to you what you believe?
But most Christians aren't Oneness, they already believe Jesus is not the Father. Most believe he has always been with the Father so you are pretty much preaching to the choir.

Most believe the pre-existing 1/3 of the Godhead known as the Son became Jesus. They don't believe the single entity know as Father became Son.

They don't believe Father incarnate as human, they believe pre-existing Son became human.
 
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