Jordan Peterson

Thread starter #1

ambush80

Senior Member
I like this guy's clear thinking most of the time. Watch how hard he struggles with the basic foundation of his Christian faith because he's a scientist. I admire this guy.

 
Thread starter #2

ambush80

Senior Member
By the way, I heard another guy on a podcast say something about engaging with opposite ideas to challenge one's own and that the collision of the ideas can sometimes yield the truth. I admire all you believers for coming down here and challenging your beliefs.

I don't think there's a way that any of the atheists or agnostics here could go in the Spiritual Discussions and Study forum to challenge our beliefs. Could you imagine what would happen if I went in there and tried to discuss scientifically how Jesus walked on water? It's not the place for open debate.
 
Last edited:

Israel

Senior Member
I am well aware that you brought JBP to the table. Or that I, at least, was made aware of him by you. I've watched dozens of clips since then, most often enjoying them, and do appreciate your introduction.

It's almost a bit like gossiping were I to pick him apart, but since I believe this was made (that clip) with his assent to publication, I believe he's kind of assented also to criticism of a sort.
I am just at the beginning of it, but by :59 I see a faltering. "I can't answer that". With subsequent "It depends upon what you mean by Jesus"...

Never mind. There's already too much on the table less than two minutes in. But thanks.

This is what some guy was moved to write in the AM yesterday regarding the resurrection prior to seeing your post this morning.

https://israelx7wordpresscom.wordpress.com/
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #4

ambush80

Senior Member
I am well aware that you brought JBP to the table. Or that I, at least, was made aware of him by you. I've watched dozens of clips since then, most often enjoying them, and do appreciate your introduction.

It's almost a bit like gossiping were I to pick him apart, but since I believe this was made (that clip) with his assent to publication, I believe he's kind of assented also to criticism of a sort.
I am just at the beginning of it, but by :59 I see a faltering. "I can't answer that". With subsequent "It depends upon what you mean by Jesus"...

Never mind. There's already too much on the table less than two minutes in. But thanks.

This is what some guy was moved to write in the AM yesterday regarding the resurrection prior to seeing your post this morning.

https://israelx7wordpresscom.wordpress.com/
It's a sign.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Not really meant to be (at least by me). And there's a host of other things said by JBP ripe for discussion. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting...for everything hinges upon the resurrection...but as said...it's not merely an event, but a person.
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #6

ambush80

Senior Member
Not really meant to be (at least by me). And there's a host of other things said by JBP ripe for discussion. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting...for everything hinges upon the resurrection...but as said...it's not merely an event, but a person.
Listening to Peterson shows me that a person fully committed to science and logic can make use of ancient mythology in a very meaningful way without having to believe in preposterous things. But he fails miserably when he says that he doesn't know what a person is capable of if they manage to find the right mix of dying and living. He doesn't seem to be implying that it would come from a technological advancement but from a spiritual exercise. If he thinks that this might allow for a resurrection he might as well say that people might be able to fly or shoot laser beams of of their eyes as well.

Rising from the dead, yes. Laser beams from the eyes, no. Why?
 

Israel

Senior Member
Listening to Peterson shows me that a person fully committed to science and logic can make use of ancient mythology in a very meaningful way without having to believe in preposterous things. But he fails miserably when he says that he doesn't know what a person is capable of if they manage to find the right mix of dying and living. He doesn't seem to be implying that it would come from a technological advancement but from a spiritual exercise. If he thinks that this might allow for a resurrection he might as well say that people might be able to fly or shoot laser beams of of their eyes as well.

Rising from the dead, yes. Laser beams from the eyes, no. Why?
He's struggling.
 
Last edited:

Israel

Senior Member
I've watched the vid a few more times and still retain a sympathy for JBP's trying to wend his way through. He has the problem a lot of really smart people have whose smartness has, to a great extent, informed their apparently successful status.
And let's face it, he has made a living being smart, and now from what I understand is seen (by some) as cashing in on that with his popularity. He's really sought after.

And that's fine. What others may say as to his cashing in means nothing to me per se, but I think both of us (as thus far we are the only two in discussion) are neither unaware, and perhaps, not willing to easily dismiss matters of conditioning and their consequences. It's hard to kill a goose laying golden eggs.

Well, maybe...only maybe.

Wealth (or that form of success), popularity, being sought for opinion (that often goes hand and hand with the previous) seem sweet consequences. How that may condition us toward and against certain other things, may not be easily discerned.

Who really wants to be seen ignorant...and therefore ignorable?

How this may all factor in I am not willing to commit to any condemnation of his position expressed in his words. And, I don't think he is unaware of it completely. I am more inclined to believe there's a lot more going on "inside him" than he can adequately express in word. It looks like he makes that pretty plain.
He's struggling.

It's interesting though, isn't it? To watch conflict. I don't think you're a guy who much goes for MMA and cage matches, but we may all have our indulgence in it. Conflict. What will win? What will show itself superior, that guy with the longer reach and quick feet...that idea...that character in a movie? So many seeming arenas for its display. And hook to hook us.

Everyone it seems "likes a good fight". Likewise, I don't think we much care for rigged ones, unfair ones (as they may appear to us)...where the heavyweight steps in to the ring with the feather weight (unless the feather weight may have a trick up his sleeve...in which case that becomes very, very sweet!).

If I could speak to JBP it would be this.
You have said truth is important, and to such an extent that you have highly recommended exercise in it. "Speak your truth", and let the chips fall where they may. Don't lie. Stop lying. Lying creates a dissonance in ones being. Let your truth out there (so to speak) for buffeting, for conflict, for contradiction...and BEAR it! Find out what happens when you speak (as best you can find words) in accord with what is true to you of your being. Stop...lying. (I don't think I have miss-characterized his expression) One can even do this around an Easter dinner table.

Besides which, I heartily endorse it. Find out who you are...when you stop lying.

The final arena of this should, and will, always lead to ones self. We speak "into the world" to discover we are speaking to, and for, ourself. ("I try to explain what I think about that" he says...standing for six hours giving biblical lectures) And I am persuaded that in "trying to explain" he's working things out in himself.

For "to ourself" is where we discover the most precious of lies is told. Sure, we may try to grease the world's wheels with whatever characterization of our self seems to appear most beneficial...but when we discover how many wheels within wheels are within us, we discover something quite apart. That grease is not as easily admitted to or (perhaps) even seen at the first.

So, I would ask him. "Is some wheel being greased to say you are a christian, but not convinced the life in Jesus Christ has overcome death (in the resurrection of his body) by His manifest presence to you...as being alive? How can one "be a christian" unconvinced Jesus Christ...is alive? (and that life being of such a sort as to you is both wondrous...and inexplicable) This is not even beginning to touch what Jesus said...about Himself. And what He would accomplish...and how.

Smart men encounter a problem when confronting what their smartness cannot explain. They will either submit their smartness is not as great (And O! how that wheel loves to be greased!) as they tell themselves, nor represent themselves to the world.

We can all start small. So small as described by Jesus (and can be seen, in Jesus)

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

And finding that grace to shuck off all the lies we embrace to make ourselves "look big"...as we grow...we find ourselves...even smaller, still. Yes, God has a deep and abiding affection for his little ones. How small will a man allow to see this?

I tell you...it's worth every bit of losing what appears "large" to gain Who truly is. Yet willing...to be made...so very small. For our benefit.
 
Thread starter #9

ambush80

Senior Member
I've watched the vid a few more times and still retain a sympathy for JBP's trying to wend his way through. He has the problem a lot of really smart people have whose smartness has, to a great extent, informed their apparently successful status.
And let's face it, he has made a living being smart, and now from what I understand is seen (by some) as cashing in on that with his popularity. He's really sought after.

And that's fine. What others may say as to his cashing in means nothing to me per se, but I think both of us (as thus far we are the only two in discussion) are neither unaware, and perhaps, not willing to easily dismiss matters of conditioning and their consequences. It's hard to kill a goose laying golden eggs.

Well, maybe...only maybe.

Wealth (or that form of success), popularity, being sought for opinion (that often goes hand and hand with the previous) seem sweet consequences. How that may condition us toward and against certain other things, may not be easily discerned.

Who really wants to be seen ignorant...and therefore ignorable?

How this may all factor in I am not willing to commit to any condemnation of his position expressed in his words. And, I don't think he is unaware of it completely. I am more inclined to believe there's a lot more going on "inside him" than he can adequately express in word. It looks like he makes that pretty plain.
He's struggling.

It's interesting though, isn't it? To watch conflict. I don't think you're a guy who much goes for MMA and cage matches, but we may all have our indulgence in it. Conflict. What will win? What will show itself superior, that guy with the longer reach and quick feet...that idea...that character in a movie? So many seeming arenas for its display. And hook to hook us.

Everyone it seems "likes a good fight". Likewise, I don't think we much care for rigged ones, unfair ones (as they may appear to us)...where the heavyweight steps in to the ring with the feather weight (unless the feather weight may have a trick up his sleeve...in which case that becomes very, very sweet!).

If I could speak to JBP it would be this.
You have said truth is important, and to such an extent that you have highly recommended exercise in it. "Speak your truth", and let the chips fall where they may. Don't lie. Stop lying. Lying creates a dissonance in ones being. Let your truth out there (so to speak) for buffeting, for conflict, for contradiction...and BEAR it! Find out what happens when you speak (as best you can find words) in accord with what is true to you of your being. Stop...lying. (I don't think I have miss-characterized his expression) One can even do this around an Easter dinner table.

Besides which, I heartily endorse it. Find out who you are...when you stop lying.

The final arena of this should, and will, always lead to ones self. We speak "into the world" to discover we are speaking to, and for, ourself. ("I try to explain what I think about that" he says...standing for six hours giving biblical lectures) And I am persuaded that in "trying to explain" he's working things out in himself.

For "to ourself" is where we discover the most precious of lies is told. Sure, we may try to grease the world's wheels with whatever characterization of our self seems to appear most beneficial...but when we discover how many wheels within wheels are within us, we discover something quite apart. That grease is not as easily admitted to or (perhaps) even seen at the first.

So, I would ask him. "Is some wheel being greased to say you are a christian, but not convinced the life in Jesus Christ has overcome death (in the resurrection of his body) by His manifest presence to you...as being alive? How can one "be a christian" unconvinced Jesus Christ...is alive? (and that life being of such a sort as to you is both wondrous...and inexplicable) This is not even beginning to touch what Jesus said...about Himself. And what He would accomplish...and how.

Smart men encounter a problem when confronting what their smartness cannot explain. They will either submit their smartness is not as great (And O! how that wheel loves to be greased!) as they tell themselves, nor represent themselves to the world.

We can all start small. So small as described by Jesus (and can be seen, in Jesus)

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

And finding that grace to shuck off all the lies we embrace to make ourselves "look big"...as we grow...we find ourselves...even smaller, still. Yes, God has a deep and abiding affection for his little ones. How small will a man allow to see this?

I tell you...it's worth every bit of losing what appears "large" to gain Who truly is. Yet willing...to be made...so very small. For our benefit.
He's struggling and he should. If one asserts the truth of a human resurrection from the dead one should struggle as mightily with that as the notion of a man flying or shooting laser beams from his eyes.

How precious is the lie that someone is at the helm, that he cares for me, that he has super powers and that he will let me live forever? How big would all that attention make someone feel? Big enough and important enough to fly a plane into a building or vote for a particular candidate with the faith of one who has received revelation? They're just humble servants after all.

He should struggle with a claim like "a rock fell up". What kind of people wouldn't struggle with such a claim? People of faith? The more I hear the story about "hitting my knees and in humility I found the strength" the more I think that the strength comes from the new found willingness to accept the irrational. "With God behind us, who can defeat us".
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #10

ambush80

Senior Member
When Peterson breaks through his issue he will become just another preacher. He's practicing now with his Biblical lectures. The only thing he's lacking is the hubris to say "God told me this and now I'm telling you". His lack of that particular hubris comes from his scientific training and it's demand for rationality.
 

Israel

Senior Member
He's struggling and he should. If one asserts the truth of a human resurrection from the dead one should struggle as mightily with that as the notion of a man flying or shooting laser beams from his eyes.

How precious is the lie that someone is at the helm, that he cares for me, that he has super powers and that he will let me live forever? How big would all that attention make someone feel. Big enough and important enough to fly a plane into a building or vote for a particular candidate with the faith of one who has received revelation? They're just humble servants after all.

He should struggle with the claim like "a rock fell up". What kind of people wouldn't struggle with such a claim? People of faith? The more I hear the story about "hitting my knees and in humility I found the strength" the more I think that the strength comes from the new found willingness to accept the irrational. "With God behind us, who can defeat us".
It's convenient to make all of one. Pilots and voters and Jesus Christ. Some plainly do not see nor hear His singularity. Or...find it safer to themselves...to deny it.
 
Thread starter #12

ambush80

Senior Member
It's convenient to make all of one. Pilots and voters and Jesus Christ. Some plainly do not see nor hear His singularity. Or...find it safer to themselves...to deny it.
Obviously not all Muslims fly planes into buildings and not all Christians vote against stem cell research but allowing oneself to believe in resurrection opens the door to many other fantastic beliefs. His singularity is the key that opens the door to Wonderland and He11.

Again, resurrection, yes. Laser beams from the eyes, no. Why?
 
Thread starter #13

ambush80

Senior Member
Why does the resurrection have to be literal but not all the other miracles? Why are some easier to let go of then the others? Is it the promise of everlasting life? Would thinking Jesus' resurrection as symbolic be like seeing Xerxes bleed?
 

Israel

Senior Member
God purposed man to know eternal life and forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ. Laser beams are not addressed. (That I know of)

But the Lord has made clear in so many ways...be careful in what regard you esteem one another; "see" one another...a jaundiced eye, full of malice...or in hope for one another. Wishing evil upon another, comes with its own stripes. And if, or when they are revealed as necessary...it is far better to submit to them...than lose one's soul.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Why does the resurrection have to be literal but not all the other miracles? Why are some easier to let go of then the others? Is it the promise of everlasting life? Would thinking Jesus' resurrection as symbolic be like seeing Xerxes bleed?
It doesn't "have to be" anything but what it is.
And it's crucial. In the deepest root meaning of that word.

And there is much of stumbling about it, for it is more than an event, more than a "fact".

"I am the resurrection and the life..."


Jesus is the resurrection out from the dead.
 
Thread starter #16

ambush80

Senior Member
God purposed man to know eternal life and forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ. Laser beams are not addressed. (That I know of)

But the Lord has made clear in so many ways...be careful in what regard you esteem one another; "see" one another...a jaundiced eye, full of malice...or in hope for one another. Wishing evil upon another, comes with its own stripes. And if, or when they are revealed as necessary...it is far better to submit to them...than lose one's soul.
But if the Bible said Jesus shot laser beams out of his eyes you would believe it. Doesn't that make you cringe just a little bit?
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #17

ambush80

Senior Member
It doesn't "have to be" anything but what it is.
And it's crucial. In the deepest root meaning of that word.

And there is much of stumbling about it, for it is more than an event, more than a "fact".

"I am the resurrection and the life..."


Jesus is the resurrection out from the dead.
Depends on what the definition of "is" is?

I think that's where Peterson is. What is the resurrection and the resurrected? Real? Myth? Archetype? Only one of those propositions seems ridiculous.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Depends on what the definition of "is" is?

I think that's where Peterson is. What is the resurrection and the resurrected? Real? Myth? Archetype? Only one of those propositions seems ridiculous.
Depends on what the definition of "real" is. If the real is what is true, then anything coming out from what is not of the real...is not true.

This is what he approaches (I perceive) when he says those things about truth and greater truths than mere facts.

But yes, I believe the resurrection of the body is sufficient to all these, real, true, and fact. And that Jesus Himself is that..."out from the dead".

Of course some men may say "but how can you believe this?" To say it has much to do with an epiphany, a touch, an enlightenment, a revelation has (in the past, and at least to a certain moment) appeared as useless...to you.

And from what he says, JBP may occupy (at least in this video) a curious place of trying to "factor" in the resurrection by factoring in what he already believes to be true. "The universe is a strange place". Berlinski also noted this. Stuff is often shown to be not at all as it seems.

The reality of being, and consciousness...these things which are certainly perceived, even to the point of being grossly taken for granted...upon closer look suddenly become in some ways (though so easily assumed as foundational) quite mysterious. "How do I know...what I think I know"?

What is the way in which the "out there" comes into me to be made real to me in such a way...as I believe it real?" The a priori here is also worth a closer look. "Why do I even believe I am real (in such a way) that the real can be related to...within me?"
And yes...there is no barring the ready anecdote of the man, coming home early to what he believes is his loving wife, finding a lover escaping out the back window.
Yes, that man may well question..."how do I know (and may I ever know?) what is true?"

I could easily use myself as an example of certain things, but I know how tedious this can become. But...I cannot exclude this...the immediate and in a moment reality that has come, and by testimony come to many who are suddenly exposed to a light that both shows "I am not who I think I am" (and all my knowing is now forfeit) and therefore things are not at all the way I have previously...presumed. My reality detector is shown...defunct, by blinding light. In blinding light. And the light that shows my understandings completely corrupt...is the very light...that saves.

It can never "factor" for that. Men like to move from the know something...to the know...more.
What is needed is found here "Forgive them Father, they don't know..."

and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.

Young's Literal

yes, the resurrection is blinding to what needs blinding to STOP. And no man knows just how much blinding he needs to one way...to see another. But, Jesus is. The way.
 
Thread starter #19

ambush80

Senior Member
Depends on what the definition of "real" is. If the real is what is true, then anything coming out from what is not of the real...is not true.

This is what he approaches (I perceive) when he says those things about truth and greater truths than mere facts.

But yes, I believe the resurrection of the body is sufficient to all these, real, true, and fact. And that Jesus Himself is that..."out from the dead".

Of course some men may say "but how can you believe this?" To say it has much to do with an epiphany, a touch, an enlightenment, a revelation has (in the past, and at least to a certain moment) appeared as useless...to you.

And from what he says, JBP may occupy (at least in this video) a curious place of trying to "factor" in the resurrection by factoring in what he already believes to be true. "The universe is a strange place". Berlinski also noted this. Stuff is often shown to be not at all as it seems.

The reality of being, and consciousness...these things which are certainly perceived, even to the point of being grossly taken for granted...upon closer look suddenly become in some ways (though so easily assumed as foundational) quite mysterious. "How do I know...what I think I know"?

What is the way in which the "out there" comes into me to be made real to me in such a way...as I believe it real?" The a priori here is also worth a closer look. "Why do I even believe I am real (in such a way) that the real can be related to...within me?"
And yes...there is no barring the ready anecdote of the man, coming home early to what he believes is his loving wife, finding a lover escaping out the back window.
Yes, that man may well question..."how do I know (and may I ever know?) what is true?"

I could easily use myself as an example of certain things, but I know how tedious this can become. But...I cannot exclude this...the immediate and in a moment reality that has come, and by testimony come to many who are suddenly exposed to a light that both shows "I am not who I think I am" (and all my knowing is now forfeit) and therefore things are not at all the way I have previously...presumed. My reality detector is shown...defunct, by blinding light. In blinding light. And the light that shows my understandings completely corrupt...is the very light...that saves.

It can never "factor" for that. Men like to move from the know something...to the know...more.
What is needed is found here "Forgive them Father, they don't know..."

and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.

Young's Literal

yes, the resurrection is blinding to what needs blinding to STOP. And no man knows just how much blinding he needs to one way...to see another. But, Jesus is. The way.
So, yes to the possibility of laser beams from the eyes.

Enjoy that.
 
Thread starter #20

ambush80

Senior Member
How do you know that the voice in your head is really Jesus? Did he identify himself as such? Why would you believe him? How do you know it's not some malevolent force deceiving you? How do you know it's not just some run of the mill ghost or maybe a forest nymph?

I would like to ask Peterson if he believes in disembodied spirits. I would ask him if he thinks these spirits can literally affect matter. I would ask him if he thinks that Jesus could fire laser beams out of his eyes if he wanted to.

If I were to approach the situation objectively I would be compelled to ask "What is this spirit being, disembodied, invisible force's motivation?" From my understanding, it apparently wants you to believe that Jesus is Lord and that the Bible is the inerrant recording of his instructions. Is that a fair assessment? Why would this force want you to believe in bizarre and unscientific things? What good does it think will come from you believing such things.

It's equally important to consider what bad does it think will come from believing such things?
 
Top