Karma - a gentle debunk

Thread starter #1
Karma means you get what you deserve. But God’s grace means you get what Jesus deserves. That’s the scandal of Christianity.

No one is good, and we all deserve death. But Jesus came and took what we deserved so we could get what He deserved forever.

--------------

From Zach Maldonado, author of "The Cross Worked"
https://zachmaldonado.com
 
It sometimes appears one reaps what he sows. Yet we know God's rain falls on the good and the bad.

Yet we are save by grace and not of our own doing.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness...
 
Jesus was Jewish, he didn't believe what Christianity teaches at all.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/judaism-s-rejection-of-original-sin

The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.
 
Jesus was Jewish, he didn't believe what Christianity teaches at all.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/judaism-s-rejection-of-original-sin

The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.
Regardless, no one is good. I'm not sure all Christians believe sin is inherited. I would think if Adam had not sinned, one of his children would, or his grandchildren. Why? Because man is not a perfect being.

But there is a lot of scripture that shows Adam as the first sinner on the earth. Satan had already sinned in Heaven.
 
Jesus was Jewish, he didn't believe what Christianity teaches at all.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/judaism-s-rejection-of-original-sin

The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.
So what about Karma?
 
So what about Karma?
I hope that people benefit from having a Do Good,Be Good and treat others as you would like to be treated attitude.
We can all relate to having that happen to us and others, but at times we see the opposite. I think we tend to remember the good more than the bad.
 
Thread starter #8
I'm sure there's a few baptists (and other parts of the church) that accept what took place at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that it was their sin which was the very thing that introduced the human race to the power of sin (noun, not verb).

When they took of that forbidden tree they died - spiritually. They still walked the earth but inside they no longer had the union with their creator. They chose rules instead of relationship. They said we can do good stuff and refrain from bad stuff without the God-man relationship that brought life to them in the first place.

I want to be clear right now and note that today - we don't just have a sin problem, we also have a death problem and the Son of God came to give the gift of new life by His death and resurrection.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

In Adam, we certainly got what we deserved - a karma sort of way, or worse, a quid-pro-quo: hey earthers ... if you do the right thing, God won't be in a hissy fit, but if you miss the mark - well the gig is up, no help for you!
Thankfully, in Christ that is not the case. Not only did every sin we commit get His forgiveness, but His life comes within and transforms our spiritual dead-ness with the fulfilling life of the Spirit, now alive within us.
All this a gift of the greatest love ever known. The grace and love of God take quid-pro-quo and especially karma off the table forever. Yep, union by a spectacular gift is so much better.
We are now accepted by a man's work (Christ), not our own, which secures this Life far better than we are able in our self-fleshly efforts.

Galatians 3:3 "Are you so foolish and senseless? Having begun [your new life by faith] with the Spirit, are you now being perfected and reaching spiritual maturity by the flesh?"

Hebrews 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. "

Heb 8:6 "But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises."
 

Israel

Senior Member
When they took of that forbidden tree they died - spiritually. They still walked the earth but inside they no longer had the union with their creator. They chose rules instead of relationship. They said we can do good stuff and refrain from bad stuff without the God-man relationship that brought life to them in the first place.

I think I think. But maybe in that there's the better admission (Not better as in a quality of "morality" but better in a sense of coming closer to the truth of a thing)...I perceive thoughts. That I have less issue with as some sort of statement...I am able to perceive thought. It sure helps me (if no one else) square much of what, or better, demonstrates in thoughts things Jesus says.

When I say "much" I do not mean my having of much at all, simply that Jesus says things which, if I were left to what appears my own figuring mean either too much which is functionally the same as nothing.

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Here all is based upon seeing and hearing...I find nothing of "figuring out", not trying to do what is imagined (or reasoned to) of what another is doing...or would do. It's not that thought is excluded but that there is a "place" of perfect perceiving that leads to action in accord. Speaking in accord. Some will see how this skewers what in popularity is touted WWJD, for Jesus is not going about in any confession of WWFD (what would Father do) but only the doing of what His Father is doing. This is very different than all else. (Don't fail to consider the cross in this implication "I do only what I see the Father doing")

I see a mind that believes it is rewarded for laboring to figure out what Jesus "would do"...and then seeks to conform itself to that. I believe I see this mind as Striper mentions, in the quid pro quo...reward is levied according to the labor of trying to figure out. "If I try to be like Jesus...then the reward of God is toward me"

I do not despise the day of small beginnings, for a father may find some joy in seeing his son seeking to "mimic" him. Slip on his boots, lower his voice a register, etc. I am not saying there is "no place of allowance" for that. But it is when the son is fully grown in apprehension of what the Father does and is doing...(dare we say even to the "why's" of it?)...as no longer outer activity but of inward conviction of their truth and rightness...that there is a conformation. The boots fit, the voice is grown and does not need any adjustment to "sound like".

And Jesus' confession is of full accord. And such that "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" is not beyond His stating. How different is this than "If you see me you see someone trying to (be) like God (or be Godly)"? But each of us is in our seeing where we are, and I am being persuaded "sight and doing" "hearing/speaking" are as linked as Jesus says and we cannot act but according as we see, nor speak according as we believe we hear. If we believe Jesus is a man who "figured out" what God wants or is pleased by, we will think and act according to that "seeing". And the same with speaking. It is perhaps, only after much of this trying (as we may well indeed believe is all to which reward is merited...) begin to see the reward itself is in deliverance from such thinking.

Whether it would be presumptuous to say our strivings are despised is moot, our works, our efforts (even toward being what we believe is Godly) is it not a directing to all that God has done in Jesus Christ? "Make every effort to find out what pleases the Lord" is surely written...but if we uphold that, then until every effort is spent so...this is law to us. Is the end of this (can we frankly speak) so man might say "I have made every effort?" as our presentation... or is our hope for something better? Is it far off? Do we really believe that our hope in entering rest is this? "I worked hard to get here?" Or...


Oh, this matter of reward and/or punishment brings us into very strict discipline. Jesus tells us it is far more than we previously imagined. The soiling of the sheets with my neighbor's wife touches not only whether I have done so...but whether I would even "like to". Is Jesus "changing" the law? God forbid. Either a man is deeply convicted of need of change (which can only direct him to One)...or he is not. No man can touch his own nature to his own handling...but if he sees it...he is made able to not deny it...but only by One...only One is given to (and for) the chiefest of sinners.

Yes , Paul said he had run his race. But do we believe the crown he saw in what was his "present" seeing was an "E" for effort of his own? I am persuaded that is all (if there were any) of his own effort (though he truly confessed it was only the grace of God in him) he didn't want, wasn't racing for. "this one thing I do..." That I may know Him...not to "know how well I have done." It's so much of what brother CS Lewis had said..."we cannot get second things by making them first...we only get second things by putting first things first" Isn't it (almost) funny? The longing to hear "well done good and faithful servant" becomes so secondary to the knowing of the only One who can say it? Even so much so that we begin to understand perhaps the heart of what is the "perfect disciple" as described by Jesus

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

How different is this than the thinking "if I do all I am instructed, I will surely feel good about myself!"??? Now, no man wants to labor to an unworthiness...unless there is something other presented to be seen that is greater than the sensing of unworthiness is in its imputation of lesser-ness. Something propelling that is greater in goodness...than unworthiness "feels" in wrongness.

There is no substitute for seeing. No substitute for hearing. This is itself...the reward. It can, will, must grow to its fullness of knowing, and will not be denied...no matter how or where a man may start, or at any particular time imagine himself along some line of progression. In kicking or screaming with heels dug in...or in being made lighter than dust that any breath of spirit might move it.


If there be any nod to the OP and karma it is that we have been moved to a plea for consequences in our manifest doings.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Her hope was in consequence. "to make one wise".

When we have had enough of our own consequences there is One remaining to be seen.

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

God has determined consequence...and we who believe...want His, and not our own.
Amazing how consequence works...was allowed for, was spoken precisely "in the day you eat of it you shall die" and how, in the fullness of time, other consequence is given...as gift.

May we see.
 
Last edited:
I think I think. But maybe in that there's the better admission (Not better as in a quality of "morality" but better in a sense of coming closer to the truth of a thing)...I perceive thoughts. That I have less issue with as some sort of statement...I am able to perceive thought. It sure helps me (if no one else) square much of what, or better, demonstrates in thoughts things Jesus says.

When I say "much" I do not mean my having of much at all, simply that Jesus says things which, if I were left to what appears my own figuring mean either too much which is functionally the same as nothing.

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Here all is based upon seeing and hearing...I find nothing of "figuring out", not trying to do what is imagined (or reasoned to) of what another is doing...or would do. It's not that thought is excluded but that there is a "place" of perfect perceiving that leads to action in accord. Speaking in accord. Some will see how this skewers what in popularity is touted WWJD, for Jesus is not going about in any confession of WWFD (what would Father do) but only the doing of what His Father is doing. This is very different than all else. (Don't fail to consider the cross in this implication "I do only what I see the Father doing")

I see a mind that believes it is rewarded for laboring to figure out what Jesus "would do"...and then seeks to conform itself to that. I believe I see this mind as Striper mentions, in the quid pro quo...reward is levied according to the labor of trying to figure out. "If I try to be like Jesus...then the reward of God is toward me"

I do not despise the day of small beginnings, for a father may find some joy in seeing his son seeking to "mimic" him. Slip on his boots, lower his voice a register, etc. I am not saying there is "no place of allowance" for that. But it is when the son is fully grown in apprehension of what the Father does and is doing...(dare we say even to the "why's" of it?)...as no longer outer activity but of inward conviction of their truth and rightness...that there is a conformation. The boots fit, the voice is grown and does not need any adjustment to "sound like".

And Jesus' confession is of full accord. And such that "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" is not beyond His stating. How different is this than "If you see me you see someone trying to like God (or be Godly)"? But each of us is in our seeing where we are, and I am being persuaded "sight and doing" "hearing/speaking" are as linked as Jesus says and we cannot act but according as we see, nor speak according as we believe we hear. If we believe Jesus is a man who "figured out" what God wants or is pleased by, we will think and act according to that "seeing". And the same with speaking. It is perhaps, only after much of this trying (as we may well indeed believe is all to which reward is merited...) begin to see the reward itself is in deliverance from such thinking.

Whether it would be presumptuous to say our strivings are despised is moot, our works, our efforts (even toward being what we believe is Godly) is it not a directing to all that God has done in Jesus Christ? "Make every effort to find out what pleases the Lord" is surely written...but if we uphold that, then until every effort is spent so...this is law to us. Is the end of this (can we frankly speak) so man might say "I have made every effort?" as our presentation... or is our hope for something better? Is it far off? Do we really believe that our hope in entering rest is this? "I worked hard to get here?" Or...


Oh, this matter of reward and/or punishment brings us into very strict discipline. Jesus tells us it is far more than we previously imagined. The soiling of the sheets with my neighbor's wife touches not only whether I have done so...but whether I would even "like to". Is Jesus "changing" the law? God forbid. Either a man is deeply convicted of need of change (which can only direct him to One)...or he is not. No man can touch his own nature to his own handling...but if he sees it...he is made able to not deny it...but only by One...only One is given to (and for) the chiefest of sinners.

Yes , Paul said he had run his race. But do we believe the crown he saw in what was his "present" seeing was an "E" for effort of his own? I am persuaded that is all (if there were any) of his own effort (though he truly confessed it was only the grace of God in him) he didn't want, wasn't racing for. "this one thing I do..." That I may know Him...not to "know how well I have done." It's so much of what brother CS Lewis had said..."we cannot get second things by making them first...we only get second things by putting first things first" Isn't it (almost) funny? The longing to hear "well done good and faithful servant" becomes so secondary to the knowing of the only One who can say it? Even so much so that we begin to understand perhaps the heart of what is the "perfect disciple" as described by Jesus

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

How different is this than the thinking "if I do all I am instructed, I will surely feel good about myself!"??? Now, no man wants to labor to an unworthiness...unless there is something other presented to be seen that is greater than the sensing of unworthiness is in its imputation of lesser-ness. Something propelling that is greater in goodness...than unworthiness "feels" in wrongness.

There is no substitute for seeing. No substitute for hearing. This is itself...the reward. It can, will, must grow to its fullness of knowing, and will not be denied...no matter how or where a man may start, or at any particular time imagine himself along some line of progression. In kicking or screaming with heels dug in...or in being made lighter than dust that any breath of spirit might move it.


If there be any nod to the OP and karma it is that we have been moved to a plea for consequences in our manifest doings.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Her hope was in consequence. "to make one wise".

When we have had enough of our own consequences there is One remaining to be seen.

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

God has determined consequence...and we who believe...want His, and not our own.
Amazing how consequence works...was allowed for, was spoken precisely "in the day you eat of it you shall die" and how, in the fullness of time, other consequence is given...as gift.

May we see.
… for Jesus is not going about in any confession of WWFD (what would Father do) but only the doing of what His Father is doing. This is very different than all else. (Don't fail to consider the cross in this implication "I do only what I see the Father doing")
Oh, the ineffable, even unfathomable, wonder of grace … that we should be shown His work.
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #11
Brother Israel, pardon a chuckle from me as I remember your statement of want to know this thing called grace. I carefully read your post and am made aware again that grace is even the wonderpus fruit which is born by that incredible union, that you and I and so many made-aware little ones share together.
Thank you, with love and grace abounding.
- Walter
 

Israel

Senior Member
Brother Israel, pardon a chuckle from me as I remember your statement of want to know this thing called grace. I carefully read your post and am made aware again that grace is even the wonderpus fruit which is born by that incredible union, that you and I and so many made-aware little ones share together.
Thank you, with love and grace abounding.
- Walter
Bless you brother for the kindness in your words.

My confession today is that God through Christ is all and only that can help a man so striving to be a somebody, so given heart and soul to making himself appear larger than he is, to first himself and then others that he might have rule...and God's continuous, unflagging, unwavering and unwearying will to show another the "better"...even in all apparent frustration to a man "striving to be".

Like the man who wakes and sleeps whose corn is growing in the field (and he knows not how) a Kingdom grows, where waking in some form to the truth of love...in some way tasting of being made even able "to love", is to that man such a miracle as limbs springing forth from stumps pales (to him) in comparison.

Of course I cannot explain how that One could be so devoted to this staying, this abiding, this "growing through" a thing so hard, stubborn, self adoring (if indeed I have "seen" anything at all) this thing always being tripped by its own love of its own reason to find "reason" for this abiding...and never satisfied. Bed too short. Pouch eaten through of moths.

A man so despising of both being made of dust of earth, and trying so desperately to hide the despising of One who would do so. God forbid I be found boasting in this, for God knows, I know little more than this. God cares as immensely for His dust, His lillies, His sparrows to a perfect delight for the revealing of His son, Jesus Christ.

Yes, I also chuckle to a full blown laughter...at how our Maker is able to even use such a perfect blindness to His end. It does not mean I see, or if in seeing have seen much of anything at all...only that if this is seeing, O! how I need to see...more.

I thank God in His sending of His son to tell me, tell us, tell any who are made able to hear "This is the work of God, to believe upon Him whom He has sent" and to not at all be deterred from this work, dissuaded from this work, made weary in this work toward a thing that would respond in such presumption thinking it knows: "yes, yes that's fine, but I already believe...I "did that" already"

Insert chuckle...to full blown laughter.
 
Top