Leading atheist defends aborting babies with Down's syndrome

Spotlite

Senior Member
Like in everything the bottom line is individuals like to lump themselves in with larger groups but we are responsible for what we do or say individually.
Is anyone really a Christian or Atheist, or Muslim or Cowboys fan??.."We" is so broad that it is meaningless. Nothing can specifically define All because every individual is so different from the next.

I am jerk for calling out another for being a jerk. We are all jerks siding with other jerks who together convince themselves that others are even bigger, worse or different jerks.
I can agree that individuals are and should be responsible.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Walt, I don't doubt this one iota, but it has no bearing at all on the original point unless you can show that all self-identifying Christians are actually practicing Christians. I would suggest that the very fact that they performing something that goes AGAINST the tenets of being a practicing Christian would suggest not. On the other hand, it provides a stark contrast; One group getting abortions AGAINST the tenets of their purported beliefs, another belief that pragmatically endorses abortions.
You choose to view it as "those 70% aren't really Christians.".
You DONT choose to view it as "Christians get abortions".
Christians sin.
You are deciding for yourself which sins are "disqualifying" and which are just your typical run of the mill sins.
Coulda swore I read somewhere that was God's job...…..
As for this nonsense -
belief that pragmatically endorses abortions
Atheist don't believe gods exist. The end.
Any opinion on abortion is a personal opinion. Not "Atheism".
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I would like to congratulate you !

You are the first person that I have meet that was born with moral values . I thought all people have to be taught to share and care , but I guess science missed you !
I realize that not everyone agrees where the source of morals come from, but we should all agree that humans have morals “naturally” as animals have instinct.

From a Christian standpoint, I’d argue in favor that all humans are born with morals written in their hearts and conscience regardless if they’re a believer or non believer.

God gave the 10 commandments to Moses and the Israelites engraved in stone and according to Romans 2: 14 &15 the law is engraved in every mans heart.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
You choose to view it as "those 70% aren't really Christians.".
In his defense, we had and continue to have people pass through on a regular base when their light bill is due. So it’s true, they do attend a Christian church and most claim to be a Christian, especially when they see handcuffs. And since the majority of the population is “Christian”, it just seems like most likely group to affiliate with when you want society to believe you.

It’s interesting to read obituaries of church members you never met.

But, I’m leaning towards two things; loosely used identification terms coupled with the comments that bullet and I previously had in this thread concerning individuals representing individuals.
 
Thread starter #45
Why did you say this before?

"I’m not God, and I won’t pretend to know his will as far as this goes."

So do you "feel" it is or do you know?
Is what you quoted ambiguous to you?
 
Thread starter #46
You coming in here and constantly making inciting posts are the example of you not being a practicing christian, yet acting like you are. WWJD and WW SFDD are two COMPLETELY different things. You just think doing whatever you want and praying for forgiveness later gets you off the hook.
It was an honest post about one of the most prominent Atheist thinkers alive today. It is fact that Singer would be the first to tell you that his atheism and his views on abortion go hand in hand. It is fact that both Neitzsche and Hitler shared the same philosophy, again both's stemming from an athiestic framework.

The fact that it "incited" you to instantly denigrate me, speaks volumes. I could say more, but I will leave it at that.
 
I realize that not everyone agrees where the source of morals come from, but we should all agree that humans have morals “naturally” as animals have instinct.

From a Christian standpoint, I’d argue in favor that all humans are born with morals written in their hearts and conscience regardless if they’re a believer or non believer.

God gave the 10 commandments to Moses and the Israelites engraved in stone and according to Romans 2: 14 &15 the law is engraved in every mans heart.
He was late to the party. Man was around long before that
 
It was an honest post about one of the most prominent Atheist thinkers alive today. It is fact that Singer would be the first to tell you that his atheism and his views on abortion go hand in hand. It is fact that both Neitzsche and Hitler shared the same philosophy, again both's stemming from an athiestic framework.

The fact that it "incited" you to instantly denigrate me, speaks volumes. I could say more, but I will leave it at that.
Again, so what. I find it hard to believe that you post these things to enlighten others about the worlds prominent atheist thinkers. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
 
You missed two key factors in my statement :cool:
Didn't miss them.
When someone says "from a christian standpoint" they mean from a standpoint that overlooks facts in favor of folklore.
 

Israel

Senior Member
I walked around work like this, maybe 5-10 years ago. Not long on my scale. Most folks had learned, generally, to not ask me what I was about. Weather was a cool topic, maybe fishing, maybe "how's the family"...how's the car...except for those rare times we "engaged". Like when someone was "really" in some distress or other...cause foxholes make great places for conversation...even though we try to avoid being in them, for the most part. And I had discovered...no one else can be pried into one.

And Lord knows how much I have striven, and may yet, to seek to make this world a friendly place to me. Make it...like me. Kinda like "in my image and my likeness" It's taken me decades to see a simple thing...my order...is absolute chaos to everything else...to unleash my order...or in doing so, I only destroy. "Release the Kraken".

What I try to bring into any fellowship...with me...(that like-ness)...senses the ending of itself, tastes the chaos, and I now see has quite rightly "run for the hills". I still don't know much about being a man...in this world. I want things...seem to need things, try to "get" things...but I see cripples... (those unable to run), are about the only ones I can manage anything with. It's not a hard thing to just "sit in the dust together"...especially when it's made plain, despite much waging of war against it, striving to not "appear so"...you do really find you are really the one "all out of joint".

So, that day...looking like this, I was assigned to work with the neuro surgeon. He's a wonderful guy I love (however that is measured) for some reason. I think he may think it's his coolness, his achievement, his mastery. But that's not really it at all, and I have yet to have that conversation I can't force. But, Oh, how I want to tell him things. And hear things. And for whatever reason he may have...he also senses (I believe) there's something a little "beyond", that he may well not want to explore, but I don't know. It could just be my quills. I just never know.

After all, one of the very first things I said to him after a brief time of working together was this "Do you find a lot of people just wanna get up next to you?" If you know anything of the structure of medicine, and where a neuro surgeon appears in that (their jokes are always the funniest!), then maybe you understand. Yes. And he nodded.

And it would not surprise me to learn he does, or has sensed a little (see how I did that? I only have a little) envy of him. After all, I once received innumerable pats on the head when my folks would trot me out and say "now tell everyone what you are going to be when you grow up" (at some barbecue or some party)...and I would say "neurosurgeon". Then...I would later discover...that takes work! Shacking up in college and skipping classes till "kicked out"...well, I could do that well, and without any effort, at all. Kids, stick with what you know! And of course...I wasn't "lazy"...just doing all that I "knew better" to do.

So, that day, appearing as I did, this guy, this neuro surgeon (who knew he only had to spend a quite limited time with me...which may have prompted his temerity to even notice to the asking) said, "Uh, what'd you do...break your glasses?"

"How will a man know who and what he is, unless he also sees everything he is striving to not be?"

Without missing a beat he laughed, in his (probably) few hundred dollar shoes, and said "How long did you have to think about that before coming up with it?"

If I was wise then, as I never have been, I could have said...."about 58 years"
But I didn't. This guy was far too use to folks trying to take him to school, to prove to him they were every bit his equal and worthy of his friendship...while lapping at his plate.
I've spent much of my believing life trying to "flatter up" to Jesus Christ. Say, and do, what I hope will present me "in the right light". It's...a joke.

There is no other light.

It's good to be called on it. To be laughed at.

Yeah, I also am aware of this:

"Dude, you're just going out of your way to make yourself look like a fool...it's just you...trying too hard"

Yep, every time I think I can, or try to have "something to teach", I find out who gets taken to school. And needs it...most.
A good laugh is really a rare thing, don't squander it...even when it's "at you". glasses.jpg
Who knows what fine examples we may end up...to "not be" like? How very useful...we could end up being. (in all our striving to appear...normal to ourselves)

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of man be lifted up. (ain't nobody been bitten by a serpent that wants to look at some image that reminds them they got venom on board...show me a hypo full of anitvenin!)

"Um, wait Jesus I think I got a better idea. Can't I just try and make them feel bad about who they are?":rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
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WaltL1

Senior Member
In his defense, we had and continue to have people pass through on a regular base when their light bill is due. So it’s true, they do attend a Christian church and most claim to be a Christian, especially when they see handcuffs. And since the majority of the population is “Christian”, it just seems like most likely group to affiliate with when you want society to believe you.

It’s interesting to read obituaries of church members you never met.

But, I’m leaning towards two things; loosely used identification terms coupled with the comments that bullet and I previously had in this thread concerning individuals representing individuals.
There is no getting around that YOU are determining "levels of sin" and YOU are determining the appropriate consequences.
Its complicated because -
Its just a fact that some folks claim to be Christian and that's about all the effort they put into it and do stuff that would make a heathen blush.
But again, you cant get around the fact your Christian beliefs, very clearly tell you that only God will determine whats disqualifying and whats not.
Its the foundation of Christianity. People sin. God can forgive those sins if he so chooses. When he so chooses. Why he so chooses. Whatever he so chooses.
Determining who's a real Christian and who isn't sure seems like a slippery slope to me. If I was a Christian of course.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
There is no getting around that YOU are determining "levels of sin" and YOU are determining the appropriate consequences.
Its complicated because -
Its just a fact that some folks claim to be Christian and that's about all the effort they put into it and do stuff that would make a heathen blush.
But again, you cant get around the fact your Christian beliefs, very clearly tell you that only God will determine whats disqualifying and whats not.
Its the foundation of Christianity. People sin. God can forgive those sins if he so chooses. When he so chooses. Why he so chooses. Whatever he so chooses.
Determining who's a real Christian and who isn't sure seems like a slippery slope to me. If I was a Christian of course.
I would disagree. We (I) do not determine anything.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Didn't miss them.
When someone says "from a christian standpoint" they mean from a standpoint that overlooks facts in favor of folklore.
I think we’ve discussed those “facts” multiple times :bounce:
 
Like in everything the bottom line is individuals like to lump themselves in with larger groups but we are responsible for what we do or say individually.
Is anyone really a Christian or Atheist, or Muslim or Cowboys fan??.."We" is so broad that it is meaningless. Nothing can specifically define All because every individual is so different from the next.

I am jerk for calling out another for being a jerk. We are all jerks siding with other jerks who together convince themselves that others are even bigger, worse or different jerks.
Who are you?...and what did you do with Bullet?


Didn't miss them.
When someone says "from a christian standpoint" they mean from a standpoint that overlooks facts in favor of folklore.
Oh!...there you are.
 

ambush80

Senior Member
I'm not sure I agree that/they are morals.
More instinctual than moral. If the alpha chimp used morals, he would try to talk to the other chimps without hurting their feelings instead of pounding on them with both fists.

They're the rudiments of morality. They're the impulses that were the origins for moral codes. Mix in a bit of overcrowding and free time and you get all the common and diverse moral codes we have today.
 

ambush80

Senior Member
I walked around work like this, maybe 5-10 years ago. Not long on my scale. Most folks had learned, generally, to not ask me what I was about. Weather was a cool topic, maybe fishing, maybe "how's the family"...how's the car...except for those rare times we "engaged". Like when someone was "really" in some distress or other...cause foxholes make great places for conversation...even though we try to avoid being in them, for the most part. And I had discovered...no one else can be pried into one.

And Lord knows how much I have striven, and may yet, to seek to make this world a friendly place to me. Make it...like me. Kinda like "in my image and my likeness" It's taken me decades to see a simple thing...my order...is absolute chaos to everything else...to unleash my order...or in doing so, I only destroy. "Release the Kraken".

What I try to bring into any fellowship...with me...(that like-ness)...senses the ending of itself, tastes the chaos, and I now see has quite rightly "run for the hills". I still don't know much about being a man...in this world. I want things...seem to need things, try to "get" things...but I see cripples... (those unable to run), are about the only ones I can manage anything with. It's not a hard thing to just "sit in the dust together"...especially when it's made plain, despite much waging of war against it, striving to not "appear so"...you do really find you are really the one "all out of joint".

So, that day...looking like this, I was assigned to work with the neuro surgeon. He's a wonderful guy I love (however that is measured) for some reason. I think he may think it's his coolness, his achievement, his mastery. But that's not really it at all, and I have yet to have that conversation I can't force. But, Oh, how I want to tell him things. And hear things. And for whatever reason he may have...he also senses (I believe) there's something a little "beyond", that he may well not want to explore, but I don't know. It could just be my quills. I just never know.

After all, one of the very first things I said to him after a brief time of working together was this "Do you find a lot of people just wanna get up next to you?" If you know anything of the structure of medicine, and where a neuro surgeon appears in that (their jokes are always the funniest!), then maybe you understand. Yes. And he nodded.

And it would not surprise me to learn he does, or has sensed a little (see how I did that? I only have a little) envy of him. After all, I once received innumerable pats on the head when my folks would trot me out and say "now tell everyone what you are going to be when you grow up" (at some barbecue or some party)...and I would say "neurosurgeon". Then...I would later discover...that takes work! Shacking up in college and skipping classes till "kicked out"...well, I could do that well, and without any effort, at all. Kids, stick with what you know! And of course...I wasn't "lazy"...just doing all that I "knew better" to do.

So, that day, appearing as I did, this guy, this neuro surgeon (who knew he only had to spend a quite limited time with me...which may have prompted his temerity to even notice to the asking) said, "Uh, what'd you do...break your glasses?"

"How will a man know who and what he is, unless he also sees everything he is striving to not be?"

Without missing a beat he laughed, in his (probably) few hundred dollar shoes, and said "How long did you have to think about that before coming up with it?"

If I was wise then, as I never have been, I could have said...."about 58 years"
But I didn't. This guy was far too use to folks trying to take him to school, to prove to him they were every bit his equal and worthy of his friendship...while lapping at his plate.
I've spent much of my believing life trying to "flatter up" to Jesus Christ. Say, and do, what I hope will present me "in the right light". It's...a joke.

There is no other light.

It's good to be called on it. To be laughed at.

Yeah, I also am aware of this:

"Dude, you're just going out of your way to make yourself look like a fool...it's just you...trying too hard"

Yep, every time I think I can, or try to have "something to teach", I find out who gets taken to school. And needs it...most.
A good laugh is really a rare thing, don't squander it...even when it's "at you". View attachment 948711
Who knows what fine examples we may end up...to "not be" like? How very useful...we could end up being. (in all our striving to appear...normal to ourselves)

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of man be lifted up. (ain't nobody been bitten by a serpent that wants to look at some image that reminds them they got venom on board...show me a hypo full of anitvenin!)

"Um, wait Jesus I think I got a better idea. Can't I just try and make them feel bad about who they are?":rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
He should learn the utility, the positive effects, of trying to minimize the needless suffering of conscious creatures.
 

ambush80

Senior Member
I'm pretty sure I already said I felt it was.
Why did you say this before?

"I’m not God, and I won’t pretend to know his will as far as this goes."

So do you "feel" it is or do you know?
Is what you quoted ambiguous to you?
On the subject of the destruction of fertilized eggs resulting from the procedure of invitro fertilization you went from "I won't pretend to know his will as far as this goes". Then with some more discussion you said "I'm pretty sure I already said I felt it was." meaning you said you have a feeling that it might be a sin and then you asked me if I thought your answer ambiguous, and I do. So do you think that destroying the embryos is murder?

Just trying to help you sharpen your iron. Now if anybody asks you if you think destroying embryos fertilized during invitro is murder you don't have to say "I don't pretend to know" or "I'm pretty sure I feel like it is", you can now say "yes " or "no", having thought about it with me. Now you can say "I have discerned what the Lord God has determined to be the sinful treatment of embryos. I understand what his will is".
 
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