Man's Relation to the Spirit-World

Heb 10:5

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The real spiritual being , God or us, in a physical temporary vessel. Eternal , soul and spirit in a borrowed DNA physical body
Does Jesus have two spirits, one of a man and one of God?
If Jesus has only one spirit, that of God, how do you describe it? Meaning is it the same spirit as the Father(Oneness) or a separate pre-existing spirit of the Son(Trinity)?
You had said that before becoming a man, there was no Son of God. Did he not exist as a spirit that was part of the Godhead?

Let me ask it this way. Did Jesus incarnate as God or did he incarnate as the pre-exisiting one third of the Godhead most know as the Son? I know he wasn't the Son yet but did his spirit pre-exist as separate but equal to God the Father?
Jesus was part of the Godhead, oneness but separable. Yet separation was not "needed"? before sin.

Jesus was eternal spirit in a body, yet "humbled himself" to be as man , or one of the fallen. He associated with us to redeem us
Jesus was part of the Godhead, oneness but separable. Yet separation was not "needed"? before sin.
Then when spirits started sinning, separation was needed.
Wasn't this before Jesus separated from the Godhead to become man?

I think I could see this better if we didn't sin until we became men. Because man sinned, separation was needed.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I don't believe this is telling us that Jesus had separated yet, but it does tell us in God's mind he would need to in the future. When "man" sinned. Man had been sinning awhile before Jesus came. So even if we sinned before becoming a man, the separation came much later than the need. The need was part of the Word or mind of God.
Hebrews tell us when
Heb 1:5

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Remember Jesus was in Heaven while on earth and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to be with us,.... He is God and yet separable a God who became man and bore sin.

Sin causes separation from God yet He became sin for us and was forsaken.

Is Jesus still human, no He is God,

We won't be human either , ony redeemed.

Those who have been saved from drowning via a life ring dont keep wearing the life ring after being rescued back on boat.
Being human is the method God provided , by one death , all can be saved. God paid the price for sin , we share in the salvation by being human as Jesus
Thread starter #45
Jesus Is Not God, God Has His Own Body

Jesus is God in the flesh, He existed as God before being human. He was in Heaven while being human. The Holy Spirit is God, God as the Holy Spirit deals with mankind altogether. Jesus was God in the flesh.and dealt with those around Him Jesus did not become Son of God until he became son of man, before that He was God , as part of what we have been told as GodHead
So your saying that Jesus is God in the Flesh, then how is He standing by the father, well how many bodies does he have then ?
Thread starter #46
Angelic Beings Called Seraphim

These are mentioned only two times in Scripture, but their description proves that they are angelic creatures and heavenly beings: " I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. above it stood the seraphims: each had six wings: with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. and the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke . . . . Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar. And he laid it upon my mouth, and said Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away and thy sin purged" (Isa. 6:1 -7).

Angelic Beings Called Cherubim
These are mentioned in several passages, Ezekiel saw them as the heavens were opened, and he saw visions of God and of the cherubims. The cherubims look like men except that each one has four faces and four wings and feet like a calf. Two of their wings join tip to tip, and the other two cover their bodies. Their faces are like those of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle. Their general appearance is like fire and lightning. They move with the speed of lightning. They are connected to wheels which look like a wheel within a wheel. The wheels are very high and look like a beryl and have many eyes in them. They have a firmament over their heads colored like a crystal. Above this firmament their is a throne on Which God sits and He has the appearance of a man. Fire and lightning and glory are all about the throne and a rainbow is round about the throne (Ezek. 1:5-28; 8:1-4; 10:1-22). Cherubims drove man from Eden and guarded the tree of life (Gen. 3:24).

Angelic Beings Called Zoa Or Living Creatures
These are beings to the cherubims, except that they have only one head each and are full of eyes before and behind. They are like the seraphims in that they have six wings. One has a face like a lion, one like a calf, one like a man, and one like a flying eagle. They cry, "Holy, holy, holy," to God day and night (Rev. 4:6-9). The word translated beast in this passage is zoa, meaning living creature. The zoa are pictured in Rev. 4:6-5; 5:14 as having harps and singing and worshipping God. They are seen also in other scenes of the book of Revelation saying and doing things such as man does (6:1-8; 7:11; 14:3, 9-11; 15:7; 19:4).
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Jesus was part of the Godhead, oneness but separable. Yet separation was not "needed"? before sin.

Jesus was eternal spirit in a body, yet "humbled himself" to be as man , or one of the fallen. He associated with us to redeem us
Then you are more of a Oneness believer than Trinitarian?
I've never quite placed "sin" as to what separated God into three unless I'm not following you.

The only separation I've read about was when Jesus took on the sin of the world he was separated from God briefly at that moment in time.

Now if it was "sin" that caused the One to become Three, then that would mean they only pre-existed as three in Word and that it took "sin" to separate the Three.

This would be more of a Oneness belief than the Trinity believers which believe they have always existed as three.
Jesus was part of the Godhead, oneness but separable. Yet separation was not "needed"? before sin.

Jesus was eternal spirit in a body, yet "humbled himself" to be as man , or one of the fallen. He associated with us to redeem us
Jesus may have not been "needed" before sin or may not have been separated before sin but his purpose was always known, needed, and planned. He existed in "Word."
The physical world exists for only the place to hold and redeem sinners

Sin did enter the physical through a physical Adam. The spiritual sinners were already here (Satan and others).
Getting back to Adam, sin entered Man through Adam. As I stated earlier sin in the spiritual world was already on the Earth in the form of Satan and his army.

What is the relationship or importance of sin entering the physical world through Adam if we as spirits had already sinned?
I'm trying to figure out the importance of scripture reminding us of Adam being the first to sin if we as spirits, had already sinned.

It seems to not be so important that Adam sinned if we had already sinned before we got here. Also, why did Adam have to sin as a physical man since he had already sinned as a spirit?

It makes Adam's sin a bit meaningless if we all had sinned in the spirit world before we got here. It would mean Adam was created as sinner. Adam was a spirit and a man. If his spirit had already sinned then he was created a sinner.

It kinda makes your doctrine confusing a bit to me.
Thread starter #50
Adam like Chirst

Jesus may have not been "needed" before sin or may not have been separated before sin but his purpose was always known, needed, and planned. He existed in "Word."
Art you are right, Adam who was without sin when he was created, in a fleshly body. He didn't even know what sin was. But when he sin he fail to do what God had commanded him to do. So Jesus had to come in the flesh as a man, to do for God what Adam fail to do, if Adam had not sin all things would still be like it was in the beginning when he was created, and Jesus would not have had to come and die on the cross for the sins of the world.
Art you are right, Adam who was without sin when he was created, in a fleshly body. He didn't even know what sin was. But when he sin he fail to do what God had commanded him to do. So Jesus had to come in the flesh as a man, to do for God what Adam fail to do, if Adam had not sin all things would still be like it was in the beginning when he was created, and Jesus would not have had to come and die on the cross for the sins of the world.
I wonder if Adam had not sinned if Bill or Ted would have?


Senior Member
I have some difficulties with an equivalence of Jesus to Adam. I am not saying anyone is implying this, it is something I have been brought to consider. This, in part from scriptures as:

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

It has come from considerations not unlike those already mentioned, the "what ifs"

I wonder if Adam had not sinned if Bill or Ted would have?
It is not that, in any way the scriptures do not emphasize the preeminence of Jesus in and to all things; we all might agree this is made clear. The gift is far greater in scope than the trespass. The One who has saved us is, in that way, far greater than any condemnation of which the first was capable. And so, that itself speaks to his superiority.

So despite any musings: "If Adam had not sinned...would Jesus have had to come?" That after a while must give way to the matter of truth..."Adam sinned and Jesus has come"...regardless of the "ifs" that could abound.

It's one of those things I am convinced the Spirit reveals in what otherwise appears as seeming paradox. Yes, on the one hand I am utterly convinced Jesus has come to show us what a "normal" man is. Not normal in the common sense of understanding, nor normal that might imply "mere". But normal to the extent that this is what man is to all relationship, and relationships.

All except our Lord Himself makes of Himself the unobtainable. All but our Lord Himself makes Himself "just a little out of reach". Who to believe? If we need to go the scriptures, they abound, "It is enough that the servant be as his Master", "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Heavenly Father is perfect" "As He is, so are we in this world".
I do not make any claim to having thus grown, but we cannot help but see Jesus never adds any codicil or addenda as we know men might, and so often do. "Be ye therefore perfect as your Father in heaven" does not come with "ha ha, but we both know you never can be!" No, Jesus is never found a "tease". In almost all places in which He encourages us in wholesomeness (and the most healthful wholeness) it's (to me) very much as though He is saying "this is for you in every way". And not as pie in sky, at all.

We are also aware, or might be made so, to such a fall any presumption in this would incur. Yet, Jesus remains bold. "You will indeed drink of my cup". So, on one hand we have our Lord Jesus being and doing what we are, perhaps to a man, knowing He is and does what no man is or does, yet all the while telling us to follow...and not as though this at all, in any way is the "unobtainable". Yes, it must be the Spirit that helps in all our weakness...against any unbelief of Jesus...and the danger of presumption.

And so these matters then, enter into the wondering of "what ifs". What if Adam was obedient? I still cannot wrap my heart (especially) nor mind around any equivalence of "Adam without fall"...and Jesus Christ.

Adam, (if only for me) is seen as child given all gifts, who, if he could just forswear the one forbidden...becomes one thing. But Jesus comes in a very different manner. He comes knowing. Knowing He is to manifest Himself as the Lamb slain, not as child delivered to Disney World to play as he sees fit, with the forbidding of only "one ride".

(If I speak as a simpleton...well...some of you already know me)

And yes, I have thought "What a wonderful playground we seem to have been denied in Adam" I am not above thinking that way, at all. And so I see "what Adam (to me) has forfeited to us, for us" Lost to us. "Oh what a great gift he had, and lost, and might have us".

Yet, the Spirit speaks. Of Jesus. Coming into the nothing of what Adam seemed to once have, a friendly place, a comfortable place, in almost every way....a submitted himself. Jesus comes into the opposition of all that, a hostility pointed, a recalcitrance to almost all and any that is of God. But in so doing He accomplishes a thing far more wonderful than any I can ever imagine of Adam...even with all his gifts abounding for his pleasure. Because Jesus comes with gift "of His own" that so far outstrips anything Adam appears to have embraced in any form.

Jesus comes with relationship His Father. Yes, He walks as man in sovereignty over the elemental, He walks as man to whom creation yields even in the naming of things..."blessed" and cursed. Yielding not one bit of ground to the serpent. In that sense he walks as Adam (seems he might have) a given sovereignty. But truly always aware, as Adam seemed not...of His relationship to His Father. His affections could not be alienated "by the woman"...nor any other being or thing.

Does He love His bride...the woman prepared for Him? Who of us doubts? Ahhh...but how He loves her! And who, in her now, seeing His love for her, now, cannot help but consider...that even after matters of sin and stain are long forgotten and wiped in every way from any thought or memory can imagine they would have less love for Him because at one time...He appeared as savior? Yes, it is entirely right to love Him as savior, entirely right to feel such a gratitude of an indebtedness of sorts as moves us to the deepest part. And yet I know, as I know anything, it is not as though His intent is to keep before us such debt. He is not the one who would ever seek to take advantage by a guilt impugned.

Friend, first, foremost, lover in all. Brother truer than any, in all things. And husband. And all because He appears as the One who steadfastly held, and refused at any point to surrender a thing I simply do not see in the "first" Adam, at all, His love, devotion, undeniable commitment to continue in the truth of His relationship to His Father. And through that is entirely unreprovable in saying of His greatest gift (that he kept, O! so safely!) for us.

Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
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Thread starter #53
Angelic Beings Called Archangels

The word archangel is found two times in Scripture-once in connection with Christ coming in the air to take out of the world all the dead and living saints (1 Thess. 4:16) and once of Michael who disputed with the devil over the body of Moses (Jude 9). The word arch simply means chief, and it suggests that there is a class of beings higher than ordinary angels. Michael is called in Dan. 10:21; 12:1, "the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people" (the Jews). He is spoken of in Rev. 12:7-9 as the commander of the angels of God who fight against the devil and his angels and will cast them to the Earth. He is called "one of the chief princes" of God in Dan. 10:13. If he is one of them, there must be more chief princes or archangels. Gabriel is one according to Dan. 8:16-19; 9:20-23; 10:8-11:1; Luke 1:19, 26. Lucifer was one of the chief angels and was given charge to rule the Earth. In Col. 1:15-18 we read of thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven; so there must be many chief angels. Some of them rebelled along with the devil and are now under him as rulers of certain kingdoms of this world (Dan. 10:13-11:1).
Thread starter #54
Angelic Beings Known as Common Angels

This word angel and angels are used 294 times in Scripture. The word is from the Hebrew and Greek words meaning MESSENGER. It is used of the second person of the trinity who appeared to men as man, or as a messenger of God. He is called THE ANGEL OF GOD (Gen. 21:17; 31:11; Ex. 3:2; Judges 6:20; 13:9; Acts 27:23) ; THE ANGEL OF THE LORD (Gen. 16:7-11; 22:11, 15; Ex. 14:19; Num. 22:22-35; Judges 2:1, 4; 6:11-12, 21-22; 13:3-6, 13-21; 2 Kings 1:3, 15; 19:35; 1 Chron. 21:12-30; Ps. 34:7; 35:5-6; Isa. 37:36; Zech. 1:1-19; 3:1-6; 12:8; Acts 7:30-38) ; HIS ANGEL (Gen. 24:7, 40; Ex. 23:20; 33:2; Num. 20:16; 2 Chron. 32:21; Dan. 3:28; 6:22) ; THE ANGEL (Gen. 48:16; Eccl. 5:6; Hos. 12:4) ; MINE ANGEL (Ex. 23:23; 32:34) ; and ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE (Isa. 63:9). It is clear that all these passages refer to the manifestations of God and not of an ordinary angel. In all other places where "the angel of the Lord" is found, the term refers to ordinary angels, as in Matt. 1:20, 24; 2:13, 19; 28:2-5; Luke 1:11-38; 2:9-21; Acts 5:19; 7:26; 10:3; 12:7-23.
The word angel is used of Christ in Rev. 8:3-5; 10:1-11:3. It is used of men in Rev. 1:1, 20; 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14; 19:9, 10; 22:6-8, 16. In most all other places it is clear that common angels who are spirit beings and heavenly creatures are referred to.
Thread starter #55
The nature of angels

They are intelligent and wise (2 Sam. 14:20; 19:27; Matt. 24:35); patient (Num. 22:22-35); meek (2 Pet. 2:11; Jude 9); joyful (Luke 15:1-10); modest (1 Cor. 11:10); holy (Mark 8:38); glorious (Luke 9:26); immortal (Luke 20:36); powerful and mighty (2 Thess. 1:7-10; Rev. 18:1); obedient (Ps. 103:20; Matt. 6:10); heavenly spirit beings (Ps. 104:4; Matt. 22:30; 24:36; Heb. 1:14); not demons (Acts 23:8, 9); not human (Heb. 2:16); limited in knowledge (Mark 13:32); higher than men (Ps. 8:5); and are always spoken of as male beings, not as being sexless as some teach from Luke 20:36. They have wills (Isa. 14:12-14); spirit bodies with hands, feet, eyes, voice, head, mouth, hair, face, and other parts and passions as do men (Judges 13:6; Dan. 10:5-21; Rev. 8:1-9:21; 14:6-11; 15:1-16:21; 2 Thess. 1:7-10). They need no rest (Rev. 4:8); eat food (Gen. 18:8; 19:3; Ps. 78:25); can appear visible and invisible (Num. 22:35; John 20:12; Heb. 13:2); can operate in the physical realm (Gen. 18:1-19:24; 22:11; 2 Sam. 24; 2 Kings 19:35; Ps. 78:49; 91:11; Matt. 28:2; Acts 10 and 12); can travel at inconceivable speed (Rev. 8:13; 9:1); can ascend and descend (Gen. 28:12; John 1:51); can speak languages (1 Cor. 13:1); and can act and do all things man can do.
Thread starter #56
The Work Of Angels

They drive spirit horses (2 Kings 2:12; 6:13-17; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-6); guard gates (Rev. 21:12); wage war in actual bodily combat (Rev. 12:7-9; Thess. 1:7-10); execute judgments (Gen. 19; 2 Sam. 24:24; 2 Kings 19:35; 2 Chron. 32:21; Ps. 78:49; Matt. 13:41, 42; Acts 12:23; Rev. 8:1-9:21; 15:1-16:2); minister to saints (1 Kings 19:5-7; Dan. 6:22; Matt. 4;11 Acts 10; Heb. 1:14); rule nations (Dan. 10:13-21; 12:1); help each individual (Matt. 18:10); sing, praise, and worship God (Luke 2:13; Ps. 103:20; 148:2; Rev. 5:11); strengthen in trial (Matt. 4:11; Luke 22:43); lead sinners to gospel workers (Acts 10:3); direct preachers (Acts 8:26; 27:23); appears in dreams (Matt. 1:20-24; 2:13-19); minister before God (Rev. 8:2; 14:15-19) ; bind Satan (Rev. 20); guard the abyss (Rev. 9:1; 20:1-3); regather Israel (Matt. 24:31); protect saints (Ps. 34:7; 91:11; Acts 12:7-10); separate the good and bad (Matt. 13:39-41); accompany Christ to Earth (Matt. 16:27; 25:31; 2 Thess. 1:7-10); witness confessions (Luke 15:8-9); receive departed spirits (Luke 16:22); give laws (Acts 7:53; Heb. 2:2); guard the tree of life (Gen. 3:24; give revelations )2 Kings 1:15; Dan. 8:19; 9:21-23; 10:10-20); impart God's will (Acts 5:19, 20; 10:1-6); bring answers to prayers (Dan. 9:21-23; 10:12, 13; Acts 10); and do many other things for God and man.
Thread starter #57
Angels are called watchers

Angels are called: watchers (Dan. 4:13-23); sons of the mighty (Ps.89:6); sons of God (Gen. 6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7); congregation of the mighty (Ps. 82:1); saints (Ps. 89:7); host (Ps. 33:6; 103:21; Luke 2:13); spirits (Heb. 1:14) and the elect (1 Tim. 5:21).
Thread starter #58
General facts about angels

They were created by Christ before the Earth (Job 38:4-7; Ps. 148:2-5; Col. 1:16). They are not to be worshipped (Col. 2:16); they are organized into principalities and powers with thrones (Col. 1:16; 2:16; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 6:10-18; 1 Pet. 3:22); innumerable (Luke 2:13; Heb. 12:22); to be judged or ruled by saints (1 Cor. 6:3); subject to God (Matt. 22:30); interested in earthly affairs (Luke 9:31; 15:7-10; 1 Tim. 5:21; 1 Pet. 1:12); and are being taught wisdom by the church (Eph. 3:10; 1 Cor. 4:9); they desire to look into things of salvation (1 Pet. 1:10-12); observe us (1Cor. 4:9); can cook (1 Kings 19:5-7); wear garments (John 20:121); appear unawares (Heb. 13:2); have been tested (1Tim. 5:21; Job. 4:18); dwell in Heaven (Rev. 12:12; 13:6); stand before God (2 Chron. 18:18); Christ is better than angels (Heb. 1:5-2:16).
Thread starter #59
Satans angels

They are made subject to Christ(1 Pet. 3:22) ; sinful and rebellious (Job. 4:18; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6, 7; Rev. 12:7-9; evil (Ps. 78:49) ; to be punished (Matt. 24:41; Isa. 24:21-23; 25:7; Jude 6, 7) ; to be cast out of Heaven (Rev. 12:7-9) ; to fight against Christ at Armageddon (Rev. 12:7-9; 19:11-21; 20:1-3; Isa. 24:21-23; 25:7) ; organized into principalities and powers (Eph. 1:21; 3:10; 6:10-17; Col. 3:10, 15; Rev. 12:7-12). They deceive men (2 Cor. 11:14) ; oppose saints (Rom. 8:38; Eph. 6:10-18) ; originally fell with Lucifer (Isa. 14:12-14; Ezek. 28:11-17; Matt. 24:41; Rev. 12:7-12) ; and He11 is prepared for them (Matt. 24:41).
Thread starter #60
There are two classes of fallen angels

Those bound (Rev. 9:11, 14; 11:7; 17:8; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6, 7) and those that are still loose with Satan and will be cast down to the Earth in the middle of Daniel's Seventieth Week of the future tribulation (Rev. 12:7-12; Eph. 6:10-17).