Notre Dame

rosewood

Senior Member
With such evidence that the Exodus and 40 years of wandering the desert as told in the Bible never happened, and even with Jewish Rabbis saying that it was all storied symbolism, it makes me wonder why a God would instruct someone to stack stones in order to tell their children about something that didn't happen when there are so many other things that could be truthful go unused.
Try again.

Watch this video. Then explain to me how Hebrew writing was found in Saudi Arabia if they were never there. The evidence is there, there are just so many out there that are hiding it from us.


This is an awesome video especially if you love the history of the Bible.

Rosewood
 
For the believer I see the question as why esteem any of them?

The matter of being



is far more important to a complete negation of the other in consideration; eclipsing to such measure that material things hold in relation to what is truly bequeathed to the believer in Jesus' name, that being the Holy Spirit.

But I myself am new in such considerations and your post has helped me to reconsider such. How a man is tempted to hold to what is passing away that can never (and actually runs quite in opposition to the) supply of what is to him, that real life.
I think it is just human nature to revere talismans and symbolic mystical objects. People have had sacred objects probably as long as there have been people. Kind of the same deal as the Hebrews toting around the Ark of the Covenant for ages. The contents represented the relationship they had with their deity.
 

Israel

Senior Member
I think it is just human nature to revere talismans and symbolic mystical objects. People have had sacred objects probably as long as there have been people. Kind of the same deal as the Hebrews toting around the Ark of the Covenant for ages. The contents represented the relationship they had with their deity.

This is so spot on.
 
Try again.

Watch this video. Then explain to me how Hebrew writing was found in Saudi Arabia if they were never there. The evidence is there, there are just so many out there that are hiding it from us.


This is an awesome video especially if you love the history of the Bible.

Rosewood
From this site.
http://sinaiinarabia.com/about-sinai-arabia/

"In addition, the lack of consensus and the apparent lack of compelling evidence for the historicity of the Exodus account has caused a mainstream dismissal of the story’s credibility."

Now, the Israelites were nomadic and I have no doubt they traveled through most of the middle east, BUT, not in any numbers or as "freed slaves" as described in the Bible's Exodus.


https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/judaism/2004/12/did-the-exodus-really-happen.aspx
 
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Thread starter #26

WaltL1

Senior Member
Just an observation -
It seems to be acceptable, even among the Christians who have participated so far, that these type of items, are in general, representations of faith/beliefs etc.
So Im left with the question exactly how are these "representations" being separated out from what is believed to be fact?
In other words..... take the Bible for example.
Why doesn't that fall under the "representation of beliefs"?
Why doesn't the entire "story" fall under representation of beliefs?
Just strikes me that there is some "selective reasoning" going on?

And a separate point -
Are these artifacts presented to Christians/Catholics as being representative of beliefs or are they being represented as the actual Crown of Thorns or Holy Nails etc?
(as a recovering Catholic I know how they were represented to me).
 
From this site.
http://sinaiinarabia.com/about-sinai-arabia/

"In addition, the lack of consensus and the apparent lack of compelling evidence for the historicity of the Exodus account has caused a mainstream dismissal of the story’s credibility."

Now, the Israelites were nomadic and I have no doubt they traveled through most of the middle east, BUT, not in any numbers or as "freed slaves" as described in the Bible's Exodus.


https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/judaism/2004/12/did-the-exodus-really-happen.aspx

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/~/p...OT-Jebel-al-Lawz-in-Saudi-Arabia.aspx#Article
 
Try again.

Watch this video. Then explain to me how Hebrew writing was found in Saudi Arabia if they were never there. The evidence is there, there are just so many out there that are hiding it from us.


This is an awesome video especially if you love the history of the Bible.

Rosewood
@3:18
"Researchers disagree as to whether the blackened rocks are actual evidence of god descending on the mountain as a fire like the bible says. Or whether it's natural volcanic rock."

Yeah I bet they do! :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 

Madman

Senior Member
I wouldn't give a nickel for all three of them.
Just an observation -
It seems to be acceptable, even among the Christians who have participated so far, that these type of items, are in general, representations of faith/beliefs etc.
So Im left with the question exactly how are these "representations" being separated out from what is believed to be fact?
In other words..... take the Bible for example.
Why doesn't that fall under the "representation of beliefs"?
Why doesn't the entire "story" fall under representation of beliefs?
Just strikes me that there is some "selective reasoning" going on?

And a separate point -
Are these artifacts presented to Christians/Catholics as being representative of beliefs or are they being represented as the actual Crown of Thorns or Holy Nails etc?
(as a recovering Catholic I know how they were represented to me).
There is historical, tradition and geographical evidence to support much of the Bible, artifacts are based primarily on tradition. I left off archaeological evidence also.
 
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Thread starter #31

WaltL1

Senior Member
There is historical, tradition and geographical evidence to support much of the Bible, artifacts are based primarily on tradition.
I think "much of the Bible" is stretching it?
And while certainly SOME places/people/events factually existed, there existence doesn't prove the rest of the story.
There is in fact a crown of thorns, a shard of wood and a nail at Notre Dame yet we don't seem to have a problem explaining them as items that represent faith/belief.
Selective reasoning/belief as none of them can be proven to be what they claim they are, yet...….
 
I think "much of the Bible" is stretching it?
And while certainly SOME places/people/events factually existed, there existence doesn't prove the rest of the story.
There is in fact a crown of thorns, a shard of wood and a nail at Notre Dame yet we don't seem to have a problem explaining them as items that represent faith/belief.
Selective reasoning/belief as none of them can be proven to be what they claim they are, yet...….
If the crucifixion of Jesus actually happened as related in the Bible, then there is a faint possibility that those artifacts could indeed be the very crown of thorns, fragment of the cross, and nail described therein.

But, Occam's pesky ol' razor. I'd say it is much more likely that those items are not the original ones, and have achieved their status as holy relics through symbolism and faith.
 
Thread starter #34

WaltL1

Senior Member
If the crucifixion of Jesus actually happened as related in the Bible, then there is a faint possibility that those artifacts could indeed be the very crown of thorns, fragment of the cross, and nail described therein.

But, Occam's pesky ol' razor. I'd say it is much more likely that those items are not the original ones, and have achieved their status as holy relics through symbolism and faith.
I would agree. It also appears the Christians that have participated could agree or at least are not opposed to that.
Now.... ask the question if that could also apply to the Bible and see what the response is.
 
There is historical, tradition and geographical evidence to support much of the Bible, artifacts are based primarily on tradition. I left off archaeological evidence also.
Do you let the evidence speak for itself or do you only go with the evidence when it doesn't conflict with your presuppositions?
 
I like to think I follow the evidence, that is what got me here. How about you?
I'd say the same. So how does the evidence square with the biblical account of creation, the great flood, the origin of species including our own, the origin of human languages, the ability of stars to fall to the earth, etc?
 
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