Of Doorposts and Life Giving Truth

Thread starter #1
Maybe a little too bold for brother M. Luther?
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“9.5 Thesis Statements

1. You are not forgiven because you confess each individual sin but rather by faith in Jesus (Acts 10:43). His blood alone brings forgiveness and was shed once therefore we are only forgiven once (Hebrews 9:22, 26) 1 John 1:9 was not written to say believers need to repeatedly get forgiven but rather about gnostics claiming to have never sinned (see verses 8 and 10 for context).

2. Repentance means to change your mind (metanoai in Greek) to believe in Jesus not to turn from sin (seeing as noone has yet quit sinning). We repent from dead works not sin (Hebrews 6:1-2) meaning works we do to try earn salvation, blessings, and favor. Overcoming sin is merely the byproduct of this.

3. Believers are dead to the law, (Romans 7:1-5) not under the law (Romans 6:14) not supervised by the law (Galatians 3:23-24) and free from the law (Romans 7:7). We do not need the ten commandments or any other of the 613 rules in the Bible. Our new identity, new nature, the Holy Spirit and Gods grace is enough to lead us to live holy lives.

Not being under law includes the sermon on the mount and some other teachings of Jesus pre cross since the New Testament started at Jesus death (Hebrews 9:17) not birth (Galatians 4:4).

4. Sanctification is not a process. Christ is both our justification and sanctification (1 Corinthians 1:30).

5. You are as righteous as Jesus is (2 Corinthians 5:21) because righteousness is a free gift (Romans 5:17) based on what Jesus did not what we do. Our spirit is the part of us that was made righteous and holy (1 John 4:17, Hebrews 10:10, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Hebrews 12:23). Our soul and body however are still a work in progress.

6. There is a counterfeit grace that says there is no ****, all are saved, its ok to sin and the Bible isn't fully Gods word. These are absolute lies. There is a **** (Rev. 20:14-15) only believers are saved (John 3:16-18, Romans 10:9-10, 13). Grace teaches us to say "no" not "yes" to sin (Titus 2:11-12) and the Bible is all God's holy word (2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21).

7. You cannot sin away your salvation. If you could loose it every time you fell into sin Jesus would have to be crucified afresh to save you again (Hebrews 6:4-6). If you could sin it away it wouldn't be ETERNAL life.

8. God is not punishing or judging believers because Jesus took all our judgment on the cross (John 5:21, John 3:18). We will stand before a bema seat (in the original Greek) not a judgment seat. Gods "chastening" in the original Greek is "paideuo" meaning child training (Hebrews 12:6) and is not punishment. Jesus was already punished for us effectively.

9. Believers do not have a sin nature. We died to sin (in Greek a noun meaning nature not action... Romans 6:1-2). The reason we still feel temptations to sin and act on them sometimes is because we have a mind that still needs to be renewed (Romans 12:1-2). You can liken this to having a new computer that still needs updates.

9.5 This means believers don't need to die to self we died once with Christ (aorist tense in Greek meaning never repeated). Matthew 16:24-26 should be understood as what happened at salvation.”

- By Allison Ramirez.
 
I think the difference many Christians see is exactly how does one "repent." What changes about them to make them obtain salvation and not probation as mentioned on another post.

For me it was a change of mind. I felt I could no longer save myself so I repented from that way of thinking. I then believed Jesus died to save me. He did what I tried and could not do.

Jesus isn't trying to save me, he did it.

I like that ideal way better than a whole life of probation.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Let's look at 1:

If there is no need to confess individual sins then why did Christ say to pray like this? Our Father.................. and forgive us our trespasses...............

Now Let's look at 7. If you can't sin away your salvation then

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to ****.


In depth study of Philippians 1: and 1 John can help with this understanding.

Suffice it to say this dead horse has been kicked back to life. As you can tell I am not a huge fan of the reformation. First it was in no way a reformation it was a schism, second it lead to every man choosing to believe as he wishes.
 
Thread starter #6
Let's look at 1:

If there is no need to confess individual sins then why did Christ say to pray like this? Our Father.................. and forgive us our trespasses................
We need Context, and to understand the time of event ...
➡️ the Our Father prayer was taught as the hearers and Christ Himself were under the law. Note that "as we forgive others" puts the impossible weight of the law on the hearers, the Jews of the day, so that they would seek refuge in Christ alone. Note that AFTER the cross and resurrection the scriptures teach we can "forgive others" because we HAVE been forgiven (a past tense application of a completed work).

The audience in Jesus' earthly ministry was bombarded by the true spirit of the law which was impossible to do or obtain. And that was the whole point. Christ would soon show the way of grace, and that would put to death the "weakness of the law" to save and bring in eternal redemption.

More on this later.
 
Thread starter #7
I think the difference many Christians see is exactly how does one "repent." What changes about them to make them obtain salvation and not probation as mentioned on another post.

For me it was a change of mind. I felt I could no longer save myself so I repented from that way of thinking. I then believed Jesus died to save me. He did what I tried and could not do.

Jesus isn't trying to save me, he did it.

I like that ideal way better than a whole life of probation.
Well said, I agree that repentance is a change of mind (belief, more specifically). The last battlefield is the mind, our thoughts, or as some New Covenant teachers say ... our old "stinkin thinkin!!" Which is why the scriptures say that we renew our minds.
(Note that your heart and spirit are NOT the problem anymore after the cross, God gave us a New Covenant heart and human spirit, that's why His Holy Spirit can live and enjoy unbroken fellowship with us - He came in and "cleaned house!". Let's face facts - the cross and resurrection WORKED)
 

Israel

Senior Member
Let's look at 1:

If there is no need to confess individual sins then why did Christ say to pray like this? Our Father.................. and forgive us our trespasses...............

Now Let's look at 7. If you can't sin away your salvation then

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to ****.


In depth study of Philippians 1: and 1 John can help with this understanding.

Suffice it to say this dead horse has been kicked back to life. As you can tell I am not a huge fan of the reformation. First it was in no way a reformation it was a schism, second it lead to every man choosing to believe as he wishes.
We need Context, and to understand the time of event ...
➡️ the Our Father prayer was taught as the hearers and Christ Himself were under the law. Note that "as we forgive others" puts the impossible weight of the law on the hearers, the Jews of the day, so that they would seek refuge in Christ alone. Note that AFTER the cross and resurrection the scriptures teach we can "forgive others" because we HAVE been forgiven (a past tense application of a completed work).

The audience in Jesus' earthly ministry was bombarded by the true spirit of the law which was impossible to do or obtain. And that was the whole point. Christ would soon show the way of grace, and that would put to death the "weakness of the law" to save and bring in eternal redemption.

More on this later.
I am not sure I would either be quick to say or endorse Jesus Christ being "under the law". Not forgetting He was testified to as being "born under [it] the law". Gal 4:4

But I also realize my own weakness in seeking to explain how the law (it's righteousness and holiness) is established only in those who walk in the faith of Jesus Christ. Rom 3:31

The law appears as all oppressive to what walks after the flesh (which may or may not be found to be true both in experience and endorsed of scripture) but is not our great confidence that Jesus Christ (the same yesterday, today and yes, forever) is never found walking "after the flesh" although being submitted to appearing in it for the sake of his brothers, being partakers of it?

But the appearance of the law (whether one sees it in any way or another, even if oppressive) is less our concern than the reality and significance of God's Christ appearing to us.

There is no reneging to:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Nor this:

For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

His being made willing to appear "as [part of] house" and in such, willing to even submit to same laws governing being "of house"/(even to death), never negates His reality of being. Though he submitted to the laws of structure, He is Himself, and remains, the builder. Seeing "what's inside Jesus"...is this not our honor in calling?

And so without fear of appearing contradictory to the law Jesus would say:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Was Jesus..."adding" to the law? God forbid! Rather the one who looked upon no thing with lust in Himself was /is both free and clear to disabuse man of the notion that "if I haven't laid a hand on her, I am innocent".

Yes, Jesus does bring man to face the impossible of himself ("how do I not want/desire what... I want/desire?") and there find therefore all condemnation, that what is impossible with man...may be revealed as the possible...with God.

And, I am persuaded, in part or whole such a man may eventually be led to the place of confrontation with a thing so curious and and subtle in working as to marvel at what may (or may not be) part of the mystery of iniquity..."I want what God has...but I do not want...God".

Jesus demonstrates in Himself through the testimony against the logical fallacy of that, the lie of that, the testimony to the hitherto hidden mystery of that as to, "how God has".

If I am presumptuous (as I cannot deny I have known it) God demonstrates through Christ a very simple truth as to how He (God) has...that again (perhaps as always) must be impossible for man (to lead him to Whom, and in Whom, all is made possible)

"let each esteem others better than themselves"

Is it surprising that this appears in the same letter in which this also is found?

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yes doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death; If by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead.

There was something unseated when the lie "Knowledge is power" is revealed.
The lust for power, outworked in a lust for knowledge was manifestly dethroned that something else...the very thing that is of essence to man in his creation, once thoroughly hidden in disobedient "grasping for" is made plain. (how subtle is information vs. conformation?)

Fellowship. The One who first said "it is not good for the man to be alone" knew and knows in His making of him what is of essence and therefore essential, even if man deny it by thrusting away in blind preference for what once appeared to him as "what he wants".

Is our God...the God of all power? Without contradiction.

And His way of power is made known, yet not to what yet resides in all, and only the seeking of it. As thing to be grasped.

For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Perhaps little, perhaps nothing remains more astounding (such a weak word) in the seeing of how humble the God who is God...is. How humble...love is.

But maybe such "astounding surprise" is peculiar to me, as only it must be, as one who seeking to rest upon his own power and glory in it, tasted the isolation and solitary confinement to which such a soul must be confined...to its sobering up. (Solitary may indeed save the beastly as well as those it might injure)


"Hey! Hey...! Anyone there to let me out? Hey...can you hear me? Anyone? How'd I get here...it's all a blur. Please...let me out...I need to be out and among..."
 
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Let's look at 1:

If there is no need to confess individual sins then why did Christ say to pray like this? Our Father.................. and forgive us our trespasses...............

Now Let's look at 7. If you can't sin away your salvation then

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to ****.


In depth study of Philippians 1: and 1 John can help with this understanding.

Suffice it to say this dead horse has been kicked back to life. As you can tell I am not a huge fan of the reformation. First it was in no way a reformation it was a schism, second it lead to every man choosing to believe as he wishes.
Reading past Matthew 24:13, all of Judea is told to hide in the mountains. Instructions on surviving a physical destruction are given. Maybe verse 13, in context with the rest of the chapter, is on how to survive the destruction of Jerusalem/Judea.

Even those days were cut short for the fate of the Elect.

Matthew 24:12
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Most will grow cold but the Elect will persevere directly before and during this siege of Jerusalem.

It looks as though many times scripture refers to a physical salvation of a city/nation and sometimes our individual salvation from eternal death.
Some believe God no longer saves or protects physical nations since the Cross. That from that moment forward it's all about an individuals salvation.
If this is true then the Matthews 24 account could be about the salvation of the Elect out of a physical city/nation.

Meaning Matthews 24:13 was doing all that was told to survive the physical destruction and not salvation from eternal death.
 
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Thread starter #10
Would not the grace of God have us know no help exists outside of the indwelling Christ? "Having been set free from sin, you derive your benefit", a benefit that comes solely from a finished work that we did not orchestrate of our own. The knowledge of the grace of God is referred to as a strength we ought pray for. Makes sense to me, loaded up with pride and weakness our standing in union with God is a humble place, and awareness of grace produces fruit that we can find joy in. What a gift.

I see this clearly in the initial points of post 1. A reformation of our thinking? I suppose. Either way, we being directed to our sufficiency in Christ apart from the works of the law would not be a man made doctrine in the least.
 
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