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Older than Clovis in Texas?
- Thread starter JustUs4All
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I wonder if it was the same people and scientist just haven't known that they used projectile points?
I mean it doesn't really point to another group that did use projectile points that lived and vanished before the Clovis people showed up.
Especially when they find older artifacts at the same sites as the Clovis or others. I do realize that this does sometime happen.
The Etowah Indian Mounds is an example. Built by people of the Mississippian culture, used later by the more modern Cherokee.
I mean it doesn't really point to another group that did use projectile points that lived and vanished before the Clovis people showed up.
Especially when they find older artifacts at the same sites as the Clovis or others. I do realize that this does sometime happen.
The Etowah Indian Mounds is an example. Built by people of the Mississippian culture, used later by the more modern Cherokee.
Should work now. I had left off the magialc www. part.
That is exactly what they are saying that it does point to. Artifacts including spear points that are not of Clovis design found in a layer beneath Clovis artifacts. Clovis spear points were thought to be the earliest spear points.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Oh, OK; so kinda like Etowah then. Two groups from two different time periods using the same area. This one being Buttermilk Creek. It must have been a really good hunting and camping area.
Weird that the earlier group used points and the latter didn't. I wonder if the Clovis dwellers ever found any points and wondered; hey what are these?
So roughly 2,000 years between these two groups? Maybe by the time the Clovis dewllers showed up there was too much sediment over the previous groups artifacts for them to find any.
The clovis people left points. They were thought to be the first to use spear points. This apparently earlier people also used spear points. Both Clovis points and these earlier points have been found at the same site with the Clovis points overlaying the earlier ones.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Reading about the same find on Newsweek.
Yeah I really messed that up. So the Clovis used spear points and thought to be the first group to use spear points. The recent find shows an earlier group at the same site also used spear points.
Read this comment on the Fox link;
"This writer makes it sound more complex than it really was. She has a complex fixation."
Yeah I really messed that up. So the Clovis used spear points and thought to be the first group to use spear points. The recent find shows an earlier group at the same site also used spear points.
Read this comment on the Fox link;
"This writer makes it sound more complex than it really was. She has a complex fixation."
GeorgiaBob
Senior Member
There is an ongoing (as in more than 35 years now) debate about the timing of the first modern humans on the American continent.
Some very credible people argue that the Bering Land Bridge is the path and that framing the period of the bridge's existence also defines the first appearance of humans in North America. Their (current) estimates are that glacial ice was moving too fast for any reasonable migration until the closing period of the Last Glacial Maximum (which ended about 13,000 years ago. Based on that standard, the Land Bridge proponents suggest a small warming 2,000 to 4,000 years before the end of the Last Max would have stabilized the Ice across the Bering Sea roughly along the arc of the current Aleutian Island chain, and allowed a walking migration. Global warming (caused by Eskimos driving neolithic Land Rovers) ended the intermittent Bering Land Bridge before 10,000 years ago. That would put the first humans on North America less than 16,000 years ago and means that they came to America as experienced knappers with some very modern tools.
But there are other theories that have some credibility. Interestingly, the University of Texas (40 miles from the dig site) supports the "walking across the Bering" theory - but Texas A&M (the sponsor of the reported dig) opts for an older date. One theory is that humans crossed portions of the North Pacific by boat AND crossed from North Africa/Europe by boat - much earlier. This concept could put humans on a very frozen North America as early as 22,000 years ago (20,000BCE). This theory also has the two cultures meeting very, very soon (within 1 or 2,000 years) after they reached America.
The early arrival theory means a stone using culture, arriving by boat, that likely learned to knap flint on this continent instead of bringing that knowledge with them. That idea would also explain some of the very primitive, but very present, spear points and arrow (atlatl) heads that were very different on both coasts, but seemingly at the same time, were refined into very similar points. The supporting evidence for early arrival also includes the preserved remains of hollowed logs large enough for offshore use, hammered stone points likely used for marine hunting, a preponderance of older "village" sites below the "max" glacier line, with the majority of sites north of the maximum glaciation being newer.
The fun part of these studies is that if UT is right then A&M just found what may be the oldest ever spearpoint - - - But if A&M is right, then UT is still in the running to prove themselved wrong.
Some very credible people argue that the Bering Land Bridge is the path and that framing the period of the bridge's existence also defines the first appearance of humans in North America. Their (current) estimates are that glacial ice was moving too fast for any reasonable migration until the closing period of the Last Glacial Maximum (which ended about 13,000 years ago. Based on that standard, the Land Bridge proponents suggest a small warming 2,000 to 4,000 years before the end of the Last Max would have stabilized the Ice across the Bering Sea roughly along the arc of the current Aleutian Island chain, and allowed a walking migration. Global warming (caused by Eskimos driving neolithic Land Rovers) ended the intermittent Bering Land Bridge before 10,000 years ago. That would put the first humans on North America less than 16,000 years ago and means that they came to America as experienced knappers with some very modern tools.
But there are other theories that have some credibility. Interestingly, the University of Texas (40 miles from the dig site) supports the "walking across the Bering" theory - but Texas A&M (the sponsor of the reported dig) opts for an older date. One theory is that humans crossed portions of the North Pacific by boat AND crossed from North Africa/Europe by boat - much earlier. This concept could put humans on a very frozen North America as early as 22,000 years ago (20,000BCE). This theory also has the two cultures meeting very, very soon (within 1 or 2,000 years) after they reached America.
The early arrival theory means a stone using culture, arriving by boat, that likely learned to knap flint on this continent instead of bringing that knowledge with them. That idea would also explain some of the very primitive, but very present, spear points and arrow (atlatl) heads that were very different on both coasts, but seemingly at the same time, were refined into very similar points. The supporting evidence for early arrival also includes the preserved remains of hollowed logs large enough for offshore use, hammered stone points likely used for marine hunting, a preponderance of older "village" sites below the "max" glacier line, with the majority of sites north of the maximum glaciation being newer.
The fun part of these studies is that if UT is right then A&M just found what may be the oldest ever spearpoint - - - But if A&M is right, then UT is still in the running to prove themselved wrong.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Reading from Newsweek a little different spin;
The discovery could potentially mean one of two things—either humans at the site changed their style of spear, or there was another, separate wave of migration into North America.
What this means in terms of human migration is still unclear. Waters says the first people at Buttermilk Creek might have experimented with different styles of spear before settling on that which is associated with the Clovis Culture. Another hypothesis is that it represents an entirely different group of people with connections to the west, where other stemmed spear points are found. “Both hypotheses are equally viable,” he said. “It will take more research and finding additional sites.”
https://www.newsweek.com/texas-anci...is-people-discovered-buttermilk-creek-1185767
The discovery could potentially mean one of two things—either humans at the site changed their style of spear, or there was another, separate wave of migration into North America.
What this means in terms of human migration is still unclear. Waters says the first people at Buttermilk Creek might have experimented with different styles of spear before settling on that which is associated with the Clovis Culture. Another hypothesis is that it represents an entirely different group of people with connections to the west, where other stemmed spear points are found. “Both hypotheses are equally viable,” he said. “It will take more research and finding additional sites.”
https://www.newsweek.com/texas-anci...is-people-discovered-buttermilk-creek-1185767
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Something about finding "western stemmed" spear points leads some to believe these earlier travelers came by boat.
That point pictured above looks like a heavily ground Clovis point to me.
One looked suspiciously Clovis to me also, but the more crude ones don't look Clovis and the Tx A&M guys seem to think they are not. I don't know just passing along stuff on the InterWebs.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
That's the way we learn. Thanks for sharing.
A good place to live is a good place to live. Multiple occupancy on a site is the rule, not the exception. Most of the sites that have been excavated in NC have artifacts from historic tribes all the way back to early Archaic times or even back to the late Paleo period. And we are now living on most of those sites ourselves.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I would agree the more I thought about it. A natural place for animals crossing a river, an area favored by animals to forage, a water source, a good place for a fortress, etc.
Kinda like camping spots in the mountains along a creek or a spot for a deer stand.
There are a lot of multi-occupational sites around here that cover all the time periods from the Early Paleo all the way up to pre-Columbian sites. Points and tools from all these time periods have been found on them. I was lucky enough to be able to hunt on one of them for several years.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
The Chesser Homestead in the Okefenokee Swamp has an Indian mound in the back yard. We toured the place years ago. I said to my Dad, "look, I think that is an Indian Mound."
He said, "I don't think so, they wouldn't build that close to an Indian mound."
I don't really know why he thought that. I good place to live on the edge of a swamp is a good place to live.
From the link;
"Tom Chesser, who owned Chesser Island in Charlton County, had a sizable mound in his backyard. In 1969 he told the Atlanta Journal and Constitution Magazine that a professor from a northern university hired him to excavate the mound in the 1920s. They discovered thirteen skeletons in all."
“Some of the skeletons were crossed,” Chesser said, “one on top of the other. Some were face down. All of them were perfect when they were first discovered. Teeth even still had some glaze on them, but when air struck, it crumbled them. They were giants. Those Jawbones would go over my whole face.”
http://www.okefenokee.com/okefenokee_lure-legends/
He said, "I don't think so, they wouldn't build that close to an Indian mound."
I don't really know why he thought that. I good place to live on the edge of a swamp is a good place to live.
From the link;
"Tom Chesser, who owned Chesser Island in Charlton County, had a sizable mound in his backyard. In 1969 he told the Atlanta Journal and Constitution Magazine that a professor from a northern university hired him to excavate the mound in the 1920s. They discovered thirteen skeletons in all."
“Some of the skeletons were crossed,” Chesser said, “one on top of the other. Some were face down. All of them were perfect when they were first discovered. Teeth even still had some glaze on them, but when air struck, it crumbled them. They were giants. Those Jawbones would go over my whole face.”
http://www.okefenokee.com/okefenokee_lure-legends/
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I wonder what the next group thought when they found an artifact of a previous
group?
I wonder that myself.
I saw a beautiful Dalton point that was found in northern Baker County. Some Indian in a later time period had notched it. He went up about a half inch from the base, which was heavily ground by the original maker, and put a set of side notches into it. A most unique find.
I also remember reading an account back in the mid 80`s about a Nez Perce Indian who wore a Clovis point in a medicine bag around his neck. There was a photo of it, a flawless Clovis made of a pinkish chert. He said he found it in the midst of some "monster bones".
