Paul and Christianity

SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
As Walt pointed out, he doesn't want to discuss. He used to try and wasn't very good at it.

Close. I did for the most part give up. I learned you can't discuss the truth with those who hold truth and morality are relative. Now I just post here and there to point out the obvious absurdities of atheism, which is easy.
 

ambush80

Senior Member
Close. I did for the most part give up. I learned you can't discuss the truth with those who hold truth and morality are relative. Now I just post here and there to point out the obvious absurdities of atheism, which is easy.

But you don't point anything out. You just say that it's absurd. You don't give any examples to examine. For example, If I say that Christianity is absurd I will bring up a specific supernatural claim like the resurrection and explain why I think belief in a resurrection is absurd. Why don't you do it like that?
 

SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
I'd like to have a discussion with you. What part sounds irrational or confused to you?

The part where a person who believes in absolute truth discusses any relevant matter with one who holds truth and morality are relative.
 

ambush80

Senior Member
The part where a person who believes in absolute truth discusses any relevant matter with one who holds truth and morality is relative.

You didn't read it, did you? If you did you would know that they don't talk about absolute truth. Why do you say things that aren't true?
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I did the math and a little google research. 22% of the NT that does not overlap in the same story is the words of Jesus . Of this 22%....... how much of it is directed at the Pharisees, etc, or arguments with the hard core Jews, etc. I stand firm on my statement in the op that only 10% is words of Jesus on how to live as a Christian. Waiting on SemperfiDawg to say "no it ain't" :pop:
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
I did the math and a little google research. 22% of the NT that does not overlap in the same story is the words of Jesus . Of this 22%....... how much of it is directed at the Pharisees, etc, or arguments with the hard core Jews, etc. I stand firm on my statement in the op that only 10% is words of Jesus on how to live as a Christian. Waiting on SemperfiDawg to say "no it ain't" :pop:

If you are lucky, he will also include a little sumptin-sumptin in regards to your morals also.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I might add that many new Christians will struggle with the same issue of works vs grace that Paul did. Maybe even election as Saul experienced vs one who is looking or seeking salvation.

We read these testimonies of people whose life has gone astray. In most of these accounts, it's something that happens beyond their involvement that leads them to God or Jesus. They aren't seeking, God leads them by a set of unexplained events.

Beyond that initial calling as that new Christian progresses, he suddenly wonders what role he plays or played in his salvation.

Maybe he reads James and compares that to Paul. I will admit that Paul is different. It's like his epistles don't fit the writings of the other apostles.

Even Paul questions his own thoughts a lot. His struggle between works and grace. It's so different that one can and will question.

I myself question the things Paul did. I can identify with him. I can see why people question his apostleship. I wonder or question how God can call someone like Paul who wasn't seeking.

Something related to teaching to the Gentiles was revealed to Paul. A mystery or secret. A change perhaps or an age of grace as some call it. Something different. The way Saul was called. His revelation. His mission.

Initially I myself doubted his calling. It made it appear that God had initially presented salvation to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. That their rejection brought salvation to the gentiles as well. This presented the dilemma that God's plan had changed.

This is another struggle within Christianity. That Jesus came to the Jew first and then the Gentile. That the Jew's rejection allowed salvation to be offered to the Gentiles.

This concept is a big part of what Paul was about. He said it was his revelation from God. So we as believers who were taught God doesn't change suddenly had to believe that he did. We also had to follow Paul with other belief concepts that showed other changes as well.

Paul was almost like a rogue, another Jesus, another concept, another apostle, another revelation,

I really can't see where a Christian who is seeking the truth, wouldn't question Saul's election.
 
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Artfuldodger

Senior Member
You are going to make a great atheist some day. 10%facepalm:

If builder will, with his search for the truth, he already would be.
Perhaps with that thought process, you will make a great Christian one day.

Have you ever questioned grace vs works, election vs freewill, James vs Paul, or has the Holy Spirit enlightened you to the truth through divine intervention?

Again, what has builder presented that has showed he has a problem believing that Jesus died for his sins?
 

Israel

BANNED
I might add that many new Christians will struggle with the same issue of works vs grace that Paul did. Maybe even election as Saul experienced vs one who is looking or seeking salvation.

We read these testimonies of people whose life has gone astray. In most of these accounts, it's something that happens beyond their involvement that leads them to God or Jesus. They aren't seeking, God leads them by a set of unexplained events.

Beyond that initial calling as that new Christian progresses, he suddenly wonders what role he plays or played in his salvation.

Maybe he reads James and compares that to Paul. I will admit that Paul is different. It's like his epistles don't fit the writings of the other apostles.

Even Paul questions his own thoughts a lot. His struggle between works and grace. It's so different that one can and will question.

I myself question the things Paul did. I can identify with him. I can see why people question his apostleship. I wonder or question how God can call someone like Paul who wasn't seeking.

Something related to teaching to the Gentiles was revealed to Paul. A mystery or secret. A change perhaps or an age of grace as some call it. Something different. The way Saul was called. His revelation. His mission.

Initially I myself doubted his calling. It made it appear that God had initially presented salvation to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. That their rejection brought salvation to the gentiles as well. This presented the dilemma that God's plan had changed.

This is another struggle within Christianity. That Jesus came to the Jew first and then the Gentile. That the Jew's rejection allowed salvation to be offered to the Gentiles.

This concept is a big part of what Paul was about. He said it was his revelation from God. So we as believers who were taught God doesn't change suddenly had to believe that he did. We also had to follow Paul with other belief concepts that showed other changes as well.

Paul was almost like a rogue, another Jesus, another concept, another apostle, another revelation,

I really can't see where a Christian who is seeking the truth, wouldn't question Saul's election.

I very much appreciate what you have written. You've set a table "out from" yourself that shows (to me at least, if no other) that your eating, and mulling, and seeking to digest toward an integration in yourself, is not at all vain. Toward a unity, a consistency, that food is now...being made into what presents it.

The "what" that has been taken in in eating, is plain by the "what" that is presented.

This is far more than a vomitting, it is you yourself showing your struggle with the things taken in that is neither to be confused with a child opening its mouth to show what it is eating...but that has not yet become part and parcel of its being. The child...has not yet...swallowed.

"I ate the little scroll and it was sweet in my mouth but turned my belly sour".

To me, you're speaking a bit like Peter. No? Who wrote...

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

What is Peter's touchstone there? Is it not:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation"? That, he confesses, Paul has written of. (We need not touch the specifics of how Peter came to know this...as indeed...a touchstone, how Peter, of himself, then in himself...was made aware...of such patience...and forbearing toward him...was made known as salvation. Even such a man who had at one time not only "advised" the Lord...but corrected Him...before His brothers )

(I would say) Obviously the plainness of this thing to Peter, the thing "ringing a bell" in Peter, (written plainly by Paul, or through Paul) is so very clear to him as a truth (if not some sum of it) that he is able to go on to say "this is heavenly food" (scripture) EVEN if some of what is written is hard to understand.

Why might Peter say this? Is it not his own admission and concession to "even though I can declare it true food, I am also understanding, some of this (his) stuff is hard to digest..."
Nevertheless, just cause it's hard...doesn't make it any less healthy, it's real food. It is...scripture...inspired of God.

I think Peter, no less than you and I, no less than any other (Paul himself surely included) found the true food is always requiring...and even in its being taken in, by requirement, a change. The food itself...makes the change toward its digestibility, toward... what can digest it.

Do I muddy the waters if I say, as we all know...Paul was a once Pharisee (though a thing he later accounted of no value) but quite plainly acknowledged...as being sent to the gentiles?

Even had we not Paul's own admissions of desire to go to "his brothers after the flesh"...he was nevertheless sent to "others"...but not such others as we might casually accept...specifically to "others" that a Pharisee (and how much more a "great Pharisee"...) would, naturally, find odious and repugnant.

Does anyone see the wisdom of God in this foolishness? Does anyone see this working of God in a man that "to himself" is quite one thing...being sent specifically, (and under command) to those who, naturally, he not only deems as unlike himself...but all that is below, beneath, (would it be a stretch to say..."contemptible"?) to his once natural understanding? (and I have little doubt that even in this, Paul's exaltation of such "Jewishness" left him to delight in his superiority to even his "brother" but lesser Jews. He was consenting to Stephen's death...might he have convinced himself "it's among these lessser guys, these guys so much less devoted...and probably in some sense..."ignorant and gullible"...that this fellow Jesus could sway") Yes, I am convinced Paul was "once" this way.

How better to break man's hierarchy in mind...than to send a man, once convinced, so very convinced of a superiority, and devoted to it, and in it...that he sought to excel...not merely "a Jew"...but even as a Jew...to the very apex of it, attainable...to him. Smart? Who would deny? Devout? Studied? Diligent? Impeccably formed...to it?

Yet...something definitely changed:

If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to righteousness under the Law, faultless...

Yes...Paul had impressive credentials in the things a man might think "pertain" to the God who is true God, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So, what did this man find? He found God working in many mighty ways, miracles, fruit production, gathering, amongst those he would have surely once deemed "so far from God"...as to be unreachable...yet here they were, before him (Paul) and in his sight, plainly manifesting the reaching of God (to all he once thought unreachable) through the gospel he carried. Do you think this might have convinced him further of the power of this thing (the gospel) that he had been given...and chosen to carry?

Who then...wouldn't marvel...wonder, be so enraptured, completely "caught" in that wonder as to provoke the deepest pursuit of all its truth....all its wonder...even (if a man could be permitted)...all the understanding and knowledge to which it would lead?

Yes, Paul became a "dog with a bone" in it, as relentlessly pursuing to depths and heights as grace would allow...to search this "thing" out.

And he would have us (I am persuaded) as God would have us...so caught. Despite all the struggles found in the receiving into ourselves of something so foreign to (previous) mind...despite all the enduring...even in manifest experience (facing wild animals!)...that this glory would be made so real to us to outshine all things of "former glory" (yes...even to one such as Paul...Moses Rabenu)...that this is would be shamelessly declared...again, and again.

And what did Paul find...commend us to seek, and find, encourage us to seek, and find? Was it a mere thing? Was it a mere knowledge? Was it a mere understanding...of things? Was it even an "adequate" presentation?

None of which is to be despised...each having its place in glory.

What did Paul find? And therefore struggle so mightily to present (yet not Paul...but through the grace of God in him)?

For I sought to know nothing among you, but Christ...and Him, crucified. And in that...Paul became a staunch (if not in our sight, staunchest) proponent (O! such a weak word I find!) of the resurrection...for to him and in him, and through him...it became manifest, time after time, after time.

As he sought conformity in death...a life was simultaneously, inevitably...revealed. "What need the resurrection...except to a dying thing?" (Do we yet doubt God very much attends to the dying of His saints?) Precious...in His sight. So precious...that He must will's himself to, does, reveal a thing there.

O! the ways of God, past finding out...even that this death...must be, (cannot ever not be) received...as gift!

And the grace found there...in this man, (Jesus the Christ) once so despised of him (he breathed out threatenings and slaughters!), once found nothing more than a thing to be reviled, hung up as both warning and emblem of God's judgment, to be scorned by both God and man (cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree)...and left to itself.

He found this man...wouldn't, didn't, even purposed...in all of it that appeared "so very wrong"...that it was Paul who was not to be "left alone", abandoned, isolated to his own insanity and imprisoned in his own gehenna...and called to him, to call him out...of it.

Yeah, it made Paul seem, and often sound extreme, and to so many, extremely too too much.

But whatever was an asset to me, I count as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things.

I consider them rubbish, ( refuse, dregs, dung) that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death, so that I may somehow attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Yes...Paul saw something. And the seeing led to more seeing...and seeking...and more and more, and more.

And a panting man might be hard understood, unless one is running with him. But he was not ashamed to say "follow me as I follow"...run...run! with me. We will know each others words...and signals. For they come from the One we run to. For the love of Christ! Run...with me!

And know who gives the strength in that running...the prize itself, Himself, has in Him all the power to give strength...to run. The light will attract...all that has ever been given to perceive...even glimmer...of light. Brighter, and brighter...to the coming day.

Run past all tangles, and snares, and briers and brambles the "head" of all speed...carries us past them...as though they are (what they truly are)...nothing.

He made no mistake in this saying

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


who loved ME, and gave himself FOR ME.


Having learned who the chiefest of sinners is (does Christ ever come to, or for...anything else?) he was not at all timid to declare this gospel to all men...even those...even specifically those who might yet wonder if they "fit the bill". But no man does this convinced...till he himself is convinced...who Christ came for. How fruitless it is to try and convince a man "he" needs Jesus should one not be convinced he himself...is the one who needs Jesus...the very most. This is a convincing only God can accomplish...made plain to that "herald" that it is only the work of God...that has even accomplished this in himself. Till then...it is always "others" that need a cleaning up.


It's a very firm thing God teaches that changes a man. Even from "they need to know" to "I must know".


"I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection"

Art, your struggles in these things, as I have in mine..."ring a bell." A bell I can't deny. You sound like a man who knows he needs God...to understand these things, and no less than that...God. Revealed through Jesus Christ. The true One. The things "of Christ" only make perfect sense...in Christ...and of such sense that all other sense and knowing of "lesser" things...is shown plainly as they are...nothing. Nothing at all. Just briars, just brambles. Unable to hold a man at speed...yet marking him plainly that others may know..."those things obviously cannot hold...therefore, let us run!"

We eat what changes us. We eat what makes us bearable...of such change. And Who has in Himself, and through Himself given; made us fit to eat...what changes us.

Even from faith to faith...and glory to glory.

Yes, we live and eat...where the One who now spreads out the table...was once spread out...upon it.
And nothing was found in Him except perfect health to life. Oh, make no mistake...he suffered inspection. Perfectly...by THE Perfect.

But about the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has placed You above Your companions by anointing You with the oil of joy.”


And may this sink as far deeply into our hearing...as it must:

but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 
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1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Initially I myself doubted his calling. It made it appear that God had initially presented salvation to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. That their rejection brought salvation to the gentiles as well. This presented the dilemma that God's plan had changed.

This is another struggle within Christianity. That Jesus came to the Jew first and then the Gentile.
This portion of the post made me realize a big void in Bart's speech as well as my own thinking. Likely the single most reason that the Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah was the idea that he was not exclusive to the so called "chosen", including gentiles and including sinners....... Thinking out loud here....... and his strong talk..... and how he offended them....... this term comes to mind.... "The offense of the cross." hmmmm....... it was offensive to those whom thought they were living right, to be told that their father is the devil..... I'm not surprised that they rejected him. I'm not sure I believe all the claims of what Jesus supposedly said. It would be like me going into a church...... a church that I don't agree with, and telling them that their father is the devil..... These people, this hypothetical church, whether wrong or not... are trying to serve God. Wholeheartedly wanting to please God in all cases. Maybe wrong, but with good intentions. And then to tell them their father is the devil..... No, he did not say that. Can you imagine the rage you would have after living your entire life jumping through all the jewish hoops, having lived this your entire life, praying, all that comes with the Jewish life, wholeheartedly trying to serve God, and then some stranger says your father is the devil. EDIT, having lived the life of the law according to how God had said. If God has a new way, a change in our road map, you could explain or give us new direction without saying our father is the devil. Bear in mind the context. They were an audience because they were interested in whether he may be the coming, expected messiah.
 
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Miguel Cervantes

Jedi Master
Why does nearly every single thread in the AAA forum have to do with something that they vehemently deny believing in? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Don't true Atheist have anything else to talk about?
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Why does nearly every single thread in the AAA forum have to do with something that they vehemently deny believing in? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Don't true Atheist have anything else to talk about?
It's almost as bad as people in the political forum constantly whining about things that they don't believe in like, democrats, liberals and unions, but yet day after day....post after post....
 

Israel

BANNED
Why does nearly every single thread in the AAA forum have to do with something that they vehemently deny believing in? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Don't true Atheist have anything else to talk about?

Like myself...what else might a stumbling man have to say but "Ooops, I need some help here."

Even if it only comes out as a grunt, even seemingly unintelligible...too deep...to be uttered.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
I did the math and a little google research. 22% of the NT that does not overlap in the same story is the words of Jesus . Of this 22%....... how much of it is directed at the Pharisees, etc, or arguments with the hard core Jews, etc. I stand firm on my statement in the op that only 10% is words of Jesus on how to live as a Christian. Waiting on SemperfiDawg to say "no it ain't" :pop:

Not trying to nit-pick but I'm amazed that there is any percentage of Jesus telling people how to live as a Christian when Christianity didn't exist yet! :confused:

Correct me if I'm wrong but until Jesus was crucified and rose again there was only Judaism and perhaps the new concepts Jesus and his disciples were practicing.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Why does nearly every single thread in the AAA forum have to do with something that they vehemently deny believing in? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Don't true Atheist have anything else to talk about?
Uhhh.. for the same reason that nearly every single thread in the Fishing forums are about fishing?
 

SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
You didn't read it, did you? If you did you would know that they don't talk about absolute truth. Why do you say things that aren't true?

Oh Brother.
 

SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Uhhh.. for the same reason that nearly every single thread in the Fishing forums are about fishing?

There’s a forum where people who don’t believe fish exist spend all day talking about fishing? Who knew.
 
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