Paul's salutations, no Holy Spirit?

j_seph

Senior Member
Jesus told of the holy ghost
John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Paul mentions in
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
 
In the OT, there is occasion of God's spirit moving among men to empower them

Nope, not one mention of the HS in heaven. We see visions of the Father and Son, but never the HS. If the son sits at the right hand of the Father, is the HS sitting on the left..???? It don't say.
Didn't read Psalm 139 did you?
Here, I'll help you.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in he11,behold, thou art there.
 
Didn't read Psalm 139 did you?
Here, I'll help you.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in he11,behold, thou art there.
Your missing the point, but somehow, I think you know this. Where in the bible does it ever mention the HS in heaven as it does God and Jesus? Is the 3rd person of the trinity sitting at the left hand of God and Jesus on his right? We have many references to Jesus in heaven.... and God in heaven..... but no mention of the Holy Spirit. To further this..... Wonder why Jesus received the HS coming down on him in the form of a dove? Hmmmm, weird, the 3rd person coming on the 2nd person? Did he need receive the spirit of God? Or was this just some sort of demonstration? Weird
 
Thread starter #24
Is the Spirit of God in the Old Testament the same as the Holy Spirit sent as the Comforter at the request of Jesus?

Has anyone also thought it weird that a spirit has a spirit? God being a spirit has a co-equal other spirit. Maybe there is only one Spirit that goes by the name God or Holy Spirit. Not actually a different persona, just a different name. I can't seem to see why God needs his own separate spirit since he as God is Spirit.
 
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Thread starter #25
Jesus told of the holy ghost
John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Paul mentions in
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
I'm not denying the existence of the Holy Ghost/Spirit. I'm wondering why he isn't mentioned in the same context or way that Jesus and God were. Did Jesus say My God and also his Holy Spirit, why have they forsaken me? Did Jesus pray to his Father and his Holy Spirit while he was on the earth? Was the Holy Spirit one of the "us" in Genesis mentioned when Adam sinned?
Did Paul consider the Holy Spirit in dialogue concerning the Father and Son? Wouldn't one think that if they were all three co-equals, then all three of their personas would always be in the dialogue. I see mostly the Father and Son dialogue in scripture.
Jesus mentions that everything he does is through the power of his Father. He doesn't say by the power of my Father and the Holy Spirit. Even if he gave up his 1/3 of the power during his incarnation, where is the Holy Spirit's power?
 
Thread starter #26
Your missing the point, but somehow, I think you know this. Where in the bible does it ever mention the HS in heaven as it does God and Jesus? Is the 3rd person of the trinity sitting at the left hand of God and Jesus on his right? We have many references to Jesus in heaven.... and God in heaven..... but no mention of the Holy Spirit. To further this..... Wonder why Jesus received the HS coming down on him in the form of a dove? Hmmmm, weird, the 3rd person coming on the 2nd person? Did he need receive the spirit of God? Or was this just some sort of demonstration? Weird
Jesus said he would ask his Father to send a Comforter. Where did this Spirit come from if not Heaven? Was this Helper God's spirit or a totally different spirit sent by God?
 
Your missing the point, but somehow, I think you know this. Where in the bible does it ever mention the HS in heaven as it does God and Jesus? Is the 3rd person of the trinity sitting at the left hand of God and Jesus on his right?
Jesus said he would ask his Father to send a Comforter. Where did this Spirit come from if not Heaven? Was this Helper God's spirit or a totally different spirit sent by God?
The difference in my belief is that I see the HS as merely God's spirit given as the new covenant. God is spirit and God is holy, thus the HS. In the OT the saints were not given his spirit to "overcome" as they have been in the NT. That's the gospel point. Where mankind failed to alter his nature through discipline, we have been given a new way, the spirit living within, as a constant. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Thus God's spirit should be referenced differently. And Jesus will not actually send him but rather made the way, set the new cov in motion. No coequal 3rd person of a trinity, just the spirit of God, referred to as the Holy Spirit
 
1 John 5:7

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
This is a prime example of the corruption of a translation trying to force a doctrine. Just look at it in the greek..... and a 2nd grader would know he had been mislead. Most bible students are aware of this????? and would not have posted it..... knowing it was a corruption. As I have always said. You can't learn the contents of the bible when approached from a devotional mindset. If your going to debate it, you got to know the issues.
 
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Thread starter #30
1 John 5:7

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Hard to believe the interpretation because it has Jesus giving testimony for himself. The Word is Jesus.

The testimony is Spirit (who never lies), the water and the blood.

For there are three that give testimony-- the Spirit, the water, and the blood;

the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

How did Jesus come? Not by water alone. Many must have thought he came like the rest of us did, by water alone. He also came by blood (lineage of God). In other words he was born human (water), and also from God (blood,lineage). God was his Father. Divinity? The blood of God?
God created Adam. Adam was not from water but blood. Jesus had an earthly Mother, he came from water. Water and blood.

John was trying to explain this concept. Therefore the Spirit, water, and blood testify as to Jesus being who John said he was.
 
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Thread starter #31
The difference in my belief is that I see the HS as merely God's spirit given as the new covenant. God is spirit and God is holy, thus the HS. In the OT the saints were not given his spirit to "overcome" as they have been in the NT. That's the gospel point. Where mankind failed to alter his nature through discipline, we have been given a new way, the spirit living within, as a constant. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Thus God's spirit should be referenced differently. And Jesus will not actually send him but rather made the way, set the new cov in motion. No coequal 3rd person of a trinity, just the spirit of God, referred to as the Holy Spirit
Was Jesus the first to receive the Holy Spirit?
The New Covenant has Jesus dying for our sins. What you are saying is that part of this New Covenant is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to help us? Maybe to keep the great commandments of loving God and fellow man.

Wow, that's powerful when you think about it. Regardless of the Trinity belief or not, the Spirit of God living within you as a Helper or Comforter.
Maybe that's why Paul didn't include him in his salutation and Jesus didn't include him in his prayers.

They both knew it was God himself.
 
Thread starter #32
This is a prime example of the corruption of a translation trying to force a doctrine. Just look at it in the greek..... and a 2nd grader would know he had been mislead. Most bible students are aware of this????? and would not have posted it..... knowing it was a corruption. As I have always said. You can't learn the contents of the bible when approached from a devotional mindset. If your going to debate it, you got to know the issues.
One more question, do you think God is powerful enough to live within us and be in Heaven at the same time? Without having to send a separate but equal 1/3 of himself to do it?
 
Thread starter #33
When Jesus returns to the earth, what does scripture say the Holy Spirit will do?

Backing up to Creation, how does Scripture say he fit in to that mission? Was Creation created through Christ and the Holy Spirit?
Even if in Word only? The Word was with God, was the Holy Spirit mentioned of being in Word with God?
 
This is a prime example of the corruption of a translation trying to force a doctrine. Just look at it in the greek..... and a 2nd grader would know he had been mislead. Most bible students are aware of this????? and would not have posted it..... knowing it was a corruption. As I have always said. You can't learn the contents of the bible when approached from a devotional mindset. If your going to debate it, you got to know the issues.
So, you're one of those Sabellianists?
 
Thread starter #35
So, you're one of those Sabellianists?
Oneness Pentecostals believe that Jesus was "Son" only when he became flesh on earth, but was the Father before being made man. They refer to the Father as the "Spirit" and the Son as the "Flesh", but they believe that Jesus and the Father are one essential Person, though operating as different "manifestations" or "modes". Oneness Pentecostals reject the Trinity doctrine, viewing it as pagan and nonscriptural, and hold to the Jesus' Name doctrine with respect to baptisms. They are often referred to as "Modalists" or "Jesus Only". Oneness Pentecostalism can be compared to Sabellianism, or can be described as holding to a form of Sabellianism, as both are nontrinitarian, and as both believe that Jesus was "Almighty God in the Flesh", but they do not totally identify each other.
 
Thread starter #36
So, you're one of those Sabellianists?
Is God powerful enough to enter us directly instead of having to use a seperate but equal persona known as the Holy Spirit?

In which persona was God in when talking to Moses through the Burning Bush? Could God the Father do this and also be in Heaven or would it require the work of the Holy Spirit?

Is that how God has always work even in the Old Testamen? Through a separate but equal Holy Spirit instead of just God's spirit. So if we see Spirit or God's Spirit in the Old Testament, should we assume it's the Holy Spirit?
 

Israel

Senior Member
The Holy Spirit doesn't testify "of Himself".

But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
 
Hard to believe the interpretation because it has Jesus giving testimony for himself. The Word is Jesus.

The testimony is Spirit (who never lies), the water and the blood.

For there are three that give testimony-- the Spirit, the water, and the blood;

the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

How did Jesus come? Not by water alone. Many must have thought he came like the rest of us did, by water alone. He also came by blood (lineage of God). In other words he was born human (water), and also from God (blood,lineage). God was his Father. Divinity? The blood of God?
God created Adam. Adam was not from water but blood. Jesus had an earthly Mother, he came from water. Water and blood.

John was trying to explain this concept. Therefore the Spirit, water, and blood testify as to Jesus being who John said he was.
The thought here was assumed that the reader understood and did not need the details. But even the translators of the KJ did not know. Jesus, "a prophet likened to Moses" came by water and blood. When Moses told God, how will they know it is you who have sent me? God said, if they don't believe the first miracles, then take water from the nile and turn it to blood, and back again. When Jesus was hanging on the cross, they pierced his side and blood and water came out. The Spirit testifies to these things
 
So, you're one of those Sabellianists?
No, I had to google that, I believe the gospel in it's simplest form. No extra biblical jargon, like hypostatic union, incarnation, one meaning 3, etc. Just simple terms, straight from the bible. I believe In God , one God, no parts, divisions, etc. One God. And in Jesus being the firstborn of the Spirit, firstborn of many brothers, having been a man in every way, no different than any other. Whom pleased God, . A man, being made in the image of God, as all men were, did not consider equality with God as something to be had, as Eve had done, but made himself a servant, realizing that man was created to serve God rather than rival God, he humbled himself, even to the point of death on a cross, therefore God highly exalted him and gave him a name above all others. ......As the firstborn son receives all that the Father has in the OT, God was pleased to have all his fullness rest on him.
 
No, I had to google that, I believe the gospel in it's simplest form. No extra biblical jargon, like hypostatic union, incarnation, one meaning 3, etc. Just simple terms, straight from the bible. I believe In God , one God, no parts, divisions, etc. One God. And in Jesus being the firstborn of the Spirit, firstborn of many brothers, having been a man in every way, no different than any other. Whom pleased God, . A man, being made in the image of God, as all men were, did not consider equality with God as something to be had, as Eve had done, but made himself a servant, realizing that man was created to serve God rather than rival God, he humbled himself, even to the point of death on a cross, therefore God highly exalted him and gave him a name above all others. ......As the firstborn son receives all that the Father has in the OT, God was pleased to have all his fullness rest on him.
I'm a bit confused by this. Are you saying you don't believe Jesus is God?
 
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