Paul's salutations, no Holy Spirit?

Thread starter #41
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Again the Holy Spirit is left out. We have but one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus. What about the Holy Spirit?
 
Thread starter #43
Sorry, but no. He is the Firstborn Son of God.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

I don't believe Jesus is God either. I also believe the Holy Spirit is God's spirit. I can't explain the Holy Spirit but I don't believe it is a desperate persona other than God. Paul never included the Holy Spirit in his salutations. If he thought him equal, he would be in the salutations. Paul did separate God and Jesus.

To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:7)

How do you explain the verse above? I can understand Jesus being in Word only but is this some out of time thing Jesus is talking about. I can even understand creation being made through Jesus without him being here yet.
 
Thread starter #45
I believe Jesus co-existed with God as his Son. that means he had to have some form of pre-man spirit/soul. He was already a Son yet only spiritual. He became physical at his incarnation.

I believe he is in Heaven today as a man. That he is a seperate entity than God. That he will return to the earth as a man.
Does this mean that I believe in two Gods? Maybe Jesus doesn't have the divinity of his Father but uses his Father's divinity/power.

The Trinity as most believe it appears to me as a way most have chosen to explain the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To me it makes appear they believe in three Gods but using Unity is an excuse that they aren't.
Oneness is a little better at an excuse because they only believe in one God who operates in the different modes of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I do believe in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
Thread starter #46
If Jesus pre-existed in Heaven with God, was he already man? Does a man have to have a body to be a man? Maybe he was already a man in spirit only. Can't we exist as man even after we die a physical death?
This is sorta the belief of the LDS. We pre-existed as man but only as spirits.

If we can exist as man in spirit form only then perhaps Christ can as well. He may be in Heaven today as a man. He may return as a man.
Some believe God, the one God, became Jesus at the incarnation of God. In other words, Christ didn't pre-exist except in Word and God became Christ. This is Oneness. They believe that God is now Jesus. Jesus only. God became man, one God. One God becoming man. God is now man. God is in heaven as that one man, Jesus. We can only experience God as Jesus from the time he became Jesus.
 
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

I don't believe Jesus is God either. I also believe the Holy Spirit is God's spirit. I can't explain the Holy Spirit but I don't believe it is a desperate persona other than God. Paul never included the Holy Spirit in his salutations. If he thought him equal, he would be in the salutations. Paul did separate God and Jesus.

To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:7)

How do you explain the verse above? I can understand Jesus being in Word only but is this some out of time thing Jesus is talking about. I can even understand creation being made through Jesus without him being here yet.
The translations got messed up when the writers tried to use the creation of God as a parallel to the new creation that comes through Christ. Just like if you were making an analogy of 2 different things, intending to merge them together at the correct time to make your point. But... then later, a copier, merged them together earlier, thus ruining the analogy. The proof in John 1 is that John tells us that "he is not the Christ". There is no way that John would tell us in the same breath that Jesus is God from the beginning,,,,,, and then also tell us essentially that I am not God. [when he claims not to be the Christ] In other words, if he intends to say Jesus is God, then he would also be saying that he is not God. He would be stoned for claiming not to be God, as if he were in question as to whether he was or might be God. When Jesus speaks of the glory I had with you before time began, [the curse, eternal rather than immortal, time begins, ageing] He is referring to himself as mankind, Adam, the glory that Adam lost in the fall. Jesus as the second Adam, he regained what the 1st Adam lost. The very reference to Jesus as the second Adam crushes any idea of preexistence.
 
Thread starter #48
Jesus was Spirit and flesh. Does one need flesh to be a man? If so then we'll all wait in the ground until the Man returns for God to awaken us. If we must be physical to experience Heaven then we aren't "man" if we are only in spirit form.

Thus maybe Jesus did pre-exist as a man but in spirit form only. Then that spirit became flesh. Once flesh he used the power of his Father to do what he did. He had unity with his Father before his incarnation and he longed for that glory and unity once more.
 
If Jesus pre-existed in Heaven with God, was he already man? Does a man have to have a body to be a man? Maybe he was already a man in spirit only. Can't we exist as man even after we die a physical death?
This is sorta the belief of the LDS. We pre-existed as man but only as spirits.

If we can exist as man in spirit form only then perhaps Christ can as well. He may be in Heaven today as a man. He may return as a man.
Some believe God, the one God, became Jesus at the incarnation of God. In other words, Christ didn't pre-exist except in Word and God became Christ. This is Oneness. They believe that God is now Jesus. Jesus only. God became man, one God. One God becoming man. God is now man. God is in heaven as that one man, Jesus. We can only experience God as Jesus from the time he became Jesus.
Everything was created in the 7 days. God does not create as he goes along. Everything has been set in motion. Some things are withheld, [with God] until times reach fulfillment, set forth by God. Thus much of these things, "to come" are created in word. God spoke and it was so. Jesus has been promised since the beginning of time to crush the serpent's heel. The word became flesh, times reached fulfillment, the promise of a savior had come to pass. The word meaning nothing more than promise being fulfilled. Not that mess created in John 1 by the translators.
 
Reread John 1, replacing the he's and him with "it" the correct, original intent, referring to the light. The light is the topic, and then at a point, John rolls the light analogy to Jesus. The translators correctly knowing it was about Jesus, incorrectly used him and he prematurely, thus ruining the analogy., Being that without the light [of the sun] there would not be any "emerging". Check the greek. No indication of creating, just moving from one point to another. Without Jesus as the mediator of a new covenant, there would be no new creation. John tells us he is not the light, thus the topic. Notice all the references to the light. This is the topic, the "it" that incorrectly was translated as he and him.
 
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Why did Thomas say " my Lord and my God"?
And why didn't Jesus correct him?

John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
When Jesus said to Peter, "get behind me Satan...." Did he really mean Peter was Satan.....or was he referring to the work of Satan? Same thing with Jesus. The previous chapters, Jesus went on and on about how he could do nothing on his own, only through the power of his Father that was at work in him. Check it out, the 3 previous chapters, over and over. However.... I concede, that if you look only at this verse....and ignore all the others, like "the Father is greater than I" or context like Jesus having a God, or missing context like no recorded controversy that the extreme monotheistic Jews just accepted a new revelation that the one God has three parts.... I concede that standing alone..... this verse seemingly says Jesus is God
 
Thread starter #55
John 17:3
And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

One doesn't have to know the Holy Spirit?
 
Thread starter #56
Salutations; Paul, Peter, and John;

Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 1:7
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 Corinthians 1:2
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,” Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” Ephesians 1:2
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” Philippians 1:2
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Colossians 1:2
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Thessalonians 1:1
Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 Thessalonians 1:2
Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.” 1 Timothy 1:2
Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.” 2 Timothy 1:2
Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.” Titus 1:4
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Philemon 1:3
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,” 2 Peter 1:2
Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father,” 2 John 1:3
 
When Jesus said to Peter, "get behind me Satan...." Did he really mean Peter was Satan.....or was he referring to the work of Satan? Same thing with Jesus. The previous chapters, Jesus went on and on about how he could do nothing on his own, only through the power of his Father that was at work in him. Check it out, the 3 previous chapters, over and over. However.... I concede, that if you look only at this verse....and ignore all the others, like "the Father is greater than I" or context like Jesus having a God, or missing context like no recorded controversy that the extreme monotheistic Jews just accepted a new revelation that the one God has three parts.... I concede that standing alone..... this verse seemingly says Jesus is God
Well, since you don't accept Thomas calling Jesus "God", how about when the Father calls Him "God"?

Heb.1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
 
Thread starter #58
Hebrews 1:9
You love justice and hate evil. Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else."

You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; this is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy beyond your companions.

Hebrews 1:4
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

"became?" The always being 1/3 of the Godhead "became" superior to the angels?

After reading verse 4, we see that Jesus became superior to the angels. In verse 9, oh God(god), your God has anointed you.
The God of you has anointed you. Your God has anointed you.

Again, you can't pick one verse out of the concept of the passage. There is no way God in any form could "become" superior to angels. There is no way for God to "anoint" God.

Psalm 45:6-7
Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; the scepter of justice will be the scepter of Your kingdom. 7You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has placed you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

And again, the Holy Spirit is missing from the dialogue.
 
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When Jesus said to Peter, "get behind me Satan...." Did he really mean Peter was Satan.....or was he referring to the work of Satan? Same thing with Jesus. The previous chapters, Jesus went on and on about how he could do nothing on his own, only through the power of his Father that was at work in him. Check it out, the 3 previous chapters, over and over
Well, since you don't accept Thomas calling Jesus "God", how about when the Father calls Him "God"?

Heb.1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
You left off verse 9. Interesting that you think I ignore a verse, yet your doing the same, are you not? Verse 9 says Jesus has a God. "Therefore God, your God, has annointed you". So.... what is going on here? Lets look at the context. God says to let all the angels worship him. If he were God, would that not be assumed. He tells us that Jesus is greater than the angels. Hmmm, would that not be assumed, if the writer just told us that Jesus is God. The context is that God has made Jesus greater than all. Hmmmm, made him this way? Was he not already. Clearly, the writer of Hebrews has used verse 8 to clarify where the next verse is coming from. Apparently he wanted to draw attention to the Psalms verse and used a previous verse to help identify it. The writer is not saying unto the son he called him God, but rather pointing to a verse that is the same context as the context he is expounding on. The context is that Jesus has been made higher than the angels, not that he is God. Read it again, I concede that standing entirely alone.... it seemingly says Jesus is God. But you have to consider the context. Jesus has a God, Jesus was not greater before, Jesus is greater than the angels. If the writer had wanted to say Jesus is God then he would not go on to say that he was greater than the angels. Hmmmm, you have about ran out of the 5 or 6 go to verses. A few left, but they no longer, standing alone, seemingly look like Jesus is called God. After those 2, it gets much easier on my part. Again, you will think I am ignoring what it says. So why did you ignore that it says Jesus has a God?
 
Thread starter #60
Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Hebrews 10:12
But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God's right hand.

Would not this be at or in a subordinate place or role? The right hand of his God? The God, oh god?

Again, no mention of the Holy Spirit.
 
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