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1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Sound off please if you think Jesus created everything..... or if you think the Father did.
 
The One who Jesus prayed to. The One who Jesus will turn the Kingdom over to.
The one who is the head of Christ.

Isaiah 64:8
Yet you, LORD, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

When one thinks of God as our Father, is it the same Father that Jesus has? His Father and our Father?

I can't think of Jesus or the Holy Spirit as my heavenly Father. It's like he's the first persona of the Trinity. Naturally I just think of the "first persona" as the Father and therefore the Creator, the Great Architect of the Universe.
 
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formula1

Daily Bible Verse Organizer
The Father created all things through Christ! Christ is the agent of creation. Our Father is the creator. Christ did what the Father told Him to do. And Christ did nothing without the Father.

As best as the human mind can understand it, this is how I understand it.

Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

John 5:19
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
 
Words do not describe what the senses can not perceive and the mind can not understand.
Not even the words of Scripture or are you talking about the perception and understanding we get from the Spirit?

In other words is it impossible for any of us to understand the perception of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit completely? I've heard many Christians say they can't explain it, they just know in their heart that it's so. They perceive it, they just can't express it in words. Some say it's still in part a mystery.

But you are saying the words can't explain it if the mind isn't opened for the senses to perceive, maybe?
 
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I still see God as the Father and thus creation.

Malachi 2:10
"Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers?

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 11:35-36
Who has given so much to God, that God should repay him?” 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

"one God, the Father" & "but one God the Father"
"from Him and through Him"
"from whom all things came"

We can show verses where the Father's creation was through his Son but that's completely different than the Son creating.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.

"one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist."
 
Not even the words of Scripture or are you talking about the perception and understanding we get from the Spirit?

In other words is it impossible for any of us to understand the perception of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit completely? I've heard many Christians say they can't explain it, they just know in their heart that it's so. They perceive it, they just can't express it in words. Some say it's still in part a mystery.

But you are saying the words can't explain it if the mind isn't opened for the senses to perceive, maybe?
The thought has crossed my mind (a short but very bumpy trip) that the word "hubris" could have been developed to describe those who indicate that they have more than superficial knowledge of the internal or external liaison (ad intra or ad extra) among Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
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Both.... John 1:3 plainly states that ' Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.'

Nothing was created without both
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
The thought has crossed my mind (a short but very bumpy trip) that the word "hubris" could have been developed to describe those who indicate that they have more than superficial knowledge of the internal or external liaison (ad intra or ad extra) among Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Hum! Hubris you say. A start with the meaning within this verse, that God is Spirit, might not be a superficial beginning... maybe.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and in truth." John 4:24


Would, could other than a superficial knowledge of internal-external "liaison" be had within worship itself, in lieu of scripture study perhaps, provided that it was with the understanding to begin with that God is a spirit... and that worship must be in Spirit.

In other words the expression that of a divine trinity, is of the study within worship from the individual or groups who are regenerated and able to worship in the Spirit and not so much a study of scripture text, but rather of a study of a "worship text".

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. " Next time you worship God you might want to study this verse... all the "liaisons".
 
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Hum! Hubris you say. A start with the meaning within this verse, that God is Spirit, might not be a superficial beginning... maybe.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and in truth." John 4:24


Would, could other than a superficial knowledge of internal-external "liaison" be had within worship itself, in lieu of scripture study perhaps, provided that it was with the understanding to begin with that God is a spirit... and that worship must be in Spirit.

In other words the expression that of a divine trinity, is of the study within worship from the individual or groups who are regenerated and able to worship in the Spirit and not so much a study of scripture text, but rather of a study of a "worship text".

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. " Next time you worship God you might want to study this verse... all the "liaisons".
"... knowledge of the internal or external liaison (ad intra or ad extra) among Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
The "liaison" [communication or cooperation that facilitates a close working relationship between people or organizations] to which I referred is that "communication and/or cooperation" which takes place "among Father, Son, and Spirit" that relates to their work which concerns maters "internal" (effecting nothing outside of themselves) or "external" (effecting creation, which may include heaven, which is another conversation). Is that what you responded to?
 
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gordon 2

Senior Member
"... knowledge of the internal or external liaison (ad intra or ad extra) among Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
The "liaison" [communication or cooperation that facilitates a close working relationship between people or organizations] to which I referred is that "communication and/or cooperation" which takes place "among Father, Son, and Spirit" that relates to their work which concerns maters "internal" (effecting nothing outside of themselves) or "external" (effecting creation, which may include heaven, which is another conversation). Is that what you responded to?

I thought so... ??? And so far still do... ???
 

Israel

Senior Member
A man can have all sorts of imaginations, read a thousand books, be able to recite every line from Romeo to Juliet, even find the delight of his eyes and heart in a sweet young thing he wishes to make his own.

But it is not until he does, until he enters that relationship given of God to us as example, marriage, that he begins to understand, in a way he never could imagine...what love is, what love can do to him, and what endurance he must learn...to be true to his beloved.

Of course he could never explain it, nor would he much care to, there's simply too much of an intimacy involved that explanation would skirt betrayal by.

If his love is first and foremost to her, then all words to any other must be viewed in the light of serving that love, alone. It is of little consequence to him, and must be, whether any other is able to understand...his first and only true care will always be that she is loved to her knowing, regardless of whether any other receives his testimony to it.
 
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Israel

Senior Member
This thing that wants to find line...space...where none exists, seems a strong persuasion. It could even be furious, for if in finding footing there it wrongly perceives it has a leverage to separation.

And the fury burns in futility.
 
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

Maybe even within the Trinity and even with the unity of the Trinity, there is still diversity. The Father has fatherly roles such as creating, the Son submits and has the role of Savior, and the Holy Spirit has the role of Comforter.

Looking at who our savior is. It was Jesus who died for our sins but it was his Father who sent him to perform this mission. Later the Son went back to Heaven and the Comforter came to not leave us without one.
So in one way God was our Savior by sending us his Son and in another way Jesus is by dying on the Cross. The Holy Spirit once again gets left out of that formula. He shows up in the formula to lead or call us to our salvation which makes the Holy Spirit our savior as well.

They are all our saviour by their unity but each has a diverse role leading us to our salvation. Without the Holy Spirit, we'd never be called. Without Christ dying, there would be nothing to be called for. Without God creating, we would never need the Son, Holy Spirit, or salvation.

Regardless, they all three have diversity within their unity such as the Father being the creator.

Is their unity so close that we can't separate it for their diverse roles? If so then the Trinity can't exist. I think this is what the Oneness believe. Their unity is too close to allow them to separate into three at the same time.
If we can't say God is the creator, Christ is the savior, and the Holy Spirit is the comforter, then their can be no Trinity belief.

That is why this question is not anti-Trinity but in a way supports it. If the three can't have different roles then the three can't exist in the way the Trinity is believed to exist.

We must be able to say the Father sent the Son or the Father created all creation otherwise there is no Trinity. If God didn't give us his Son, their is no Trinity.

If we can't say Jesus is our Savior then we can't have the Trinity. Otherwise we'd have the one God becoming man in a oneness way instead of the pre-existing Son persona becoming the incarnate man.
 
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Why is it we can use scripture to explain things we believe but not the Trinity? We just say it's not completely explainable. It's a mystery. We know in our hearts it exist but words can't describe it.
It's even OK for us to say we can't explain it to others.

We don't say this so much for other beliefs. Yet we hold it against others who don't see it exactly like we do. You must believe Jesus is God or you must believe God is the one one who died on the cross or Jesus must be divine.
It's such a strong belief that some even question one's salvation if they don't see the Trinity exactly as they do. Oneness believers are even worse. To them you must believe the one God became Jesus at the incarnation. That Jesus didn't pre-exist before the incarnation. He was only with God in Word. That this God without the different personas became Jesus and is still in his Jesus persona today. Therefore one must be baptized in the name of "Jesus only" to gain salvation.
They do believe in the three personas of God but that God isn't all three at the same time. He can't interact between the three. His unity will not let him be that diverse.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
So in one way God was our Savior by sending us his Son and in another way Jesus is by dying on the Cross. The Holy Spirit once again gets left out of that formula. He shows up in the formula to lead or call us to our salvation which makes the Holy Spirit our savior as well.

They are all our saviour by their unity but each has a diverse role leading us to our salvation.
"Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me." Hosea 13:4

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 41:11

Trinity is there for the seeing.

Why is it we can use scripture to explain things we believe but not the Trinity?
I see it throughout Scripture. Paul tells us why some can't see it.
 
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