Question for the Godless Reprobates (Atheist/Agnostics)...

[Israel]

I think I would (more or less).
An expansion on -

And I may be guilty of breaking the rules of logic here -
Its true I cannot separate Jesus from religion. I reject organized religion/Christianity so therefore had to reject their idea of Jesus as a Savior/God/etc. based on a lack of other evidence.
However Jesus is said (by the same folks I just rejected, not logical right?) to have a certain outlook/qualities that I respect/admire/think is worth emulating and have retained that despite rejecting him as a savior/God.
Maybe in a small way that could be considered comparable/relatable to -

Both seem to desire to separate yet retain?
.
I am... not sure of the word(s).... touched? appreciative? impressed?
all of those?..... that you would remember and consider that experience.

I am serious...how could I not?
I see myself, and have heard the testimony of countless others...and (though this may remain hard to swallow) I believe I listen for the spirit.


I am in some way convinced, though no to the point of declaration of its absolute necessity (and yet, still, very persuaded) that everyone the Lord calls must, in some way...wend, hack, fight, labor, through the religious jungle. It's a swamp, a quagmire, a most terrible dark and gloomy place of brambles and thorns and clinging vines...

(I have never read Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyon...but am well aware he makes a point of those places where the soul can be all but overcome)

I ask you in all sincerity...what hasn't man...when discovering (almost anything)...even what seems the very best of things...turn into an institution?

Look, I love the joy of discovery. I love the joy (when I see it) in a man who does things from a passion to know...I don't despise "that guy" who labors in his lab, or in his garage, or in his mind...to find a thing, apprehend a thing...know a thing he has been given to see afar off...might indeed be!

And then...Eureka!

But what happens? What happens with the fellows who run and own Microsoft...or Apple...or...(insert a religious name!) they, by that discovery they once labored for in their own garage...and succeeded have become so big... so powerful and agglomerated, what happens?

They know. They are "it". And at the first, they draw to themselves others "like-minded"...they say to the guy (whose mind and tenacity and desire) they love...working in his little garage "come work for us...we'll give you your own lab, pay for all the stuff you are now finding so hard to pay for, you'll be free to devote yourself "full time" to your passion, pay you well, to boot!". And;

"everything you discover becomes our property".

I don't have time right now to go on...but...I think/hope you know where this may be headed.

Yes. Even the smallest interest in Jesus is now a danger to the "competition"...and there is a thing that has set itself up as the "keeper" of all secrets. To the little guy it makes offer..."why work in your own lab, having to reinvent the wheel at every step" (that we already have the patent for) when we can launch you from the place of all that we already have, and know...into the "beyond that".

"Look how big we are in this thing you are laboring in...we have the way to help you succeed".
And yes...we have policies in place to "help" you...(trust us) we have learned they are for your own good...and advancement...after all they're tested!" (Look how big we are!)



What an offer!

 

[NCHillbilly]

That's one thing that turns me off on organized religion-it's a money racket for a big part. I worked for six years for the UMC at a "retreat" they own near here for their bigwigs to relax at. A few thousand acres, a whole private lake, hotels, etc. Nastiest power struggles and office politics I've ever seen anywhere. And if they needed a few million bucks to renovate a hotel or do this or that, it was no big deal. I always wondered how many folks they could have helped with those tens or hundreds of millions of bucks that were going into recreation for the upper crust of the church administration.

 

[Israel]

That's one thing that turns me off on organized religion-it's a money racket for a big part. I worked for six years for the UMC at a "retreat" they own near here for their bigwigs to relax at. A few thousand acres, a whole private lake, hotels, etc. Nastiest power struggles and office politics I've ever seen anywhere. And if they needed a few million bucks to renovate a hotel or do this or that, it was no big deal. I always wondered how many folks they could have helped with those tens or hundreds of millions of bucks that were going into recreation for the upper crust of the church administration.

The things "seen" start very small. And I am a liar if I don't repeat what I said before "I find these things in myself". I find in myself a desire for an "amen, brother"...I find a desire for affirmation (it makes me feel "bigger") I also find an all but irresistible self indulgence. And this...so often...in the very face of those things I condemn others for in (what I call) their "indulgence".

I find offense...when I am resisted...I find a "call to fight"...when I feel threatened...or opposed. I don't very much like "feeling ignored". In short...in this world I think I pretty much am precisely no different than most men...just maybe..."worse".

Why worse? Because I am given to a stance (I once assumed...was "up for my assuming") that Jesus ain't no liar, nor fool. In fact, he's all that is truth. And...in charge. But I find myself still stumbling...falling...to the weakest of persuasions...envies, strife and such. I understand the "draw" of religion..."make yourself big...inoculate against your own decrease by a very simple thing..."

And that is simply view all opposition as diabolical. All resistance as "from liars". Cocoon yourself in that, wrap yourself in that, inure yourself...in that. This way you don't ever have to deal with facing your own hypocrisy, your own self indulgence, your own arrogance, your own...fear...of being to small to be known...by God. The very God (one such as I) proclaims knows the very hairs on the head of each.

But...even if these things be condemned in me...and I see them plainly...it's not for me to find fault with "what appears" to indulge them no less...for in myself...I know I have no power to resist them.
So...if they are resisted...I surely know if I seek to take "credit" for that...I must manifestly forfeit such help...and the issue becomes "Do you like the fun and comfort of just believing a "little lie" (you are right and everyone else is wrong)...or...do you want to "come clean".

So. Could it really be Jesus...speaking through "an atheist"...

"hey man...you are way too self absorbed"?
"Hey man. you say and try to act like humility is a good thing...but..."
"Hey man...you sound like just another religious pimp"
"hey man...you ain't all you think you are!"

Oh, my! (Even someone as self assured, as brilliant to himself as the most shining star...can come to know there's a hidden encouragement inside every rebuke...and they are indeed as much a sign of the Lord's love as the most tender word)

Jesus is just who He says. Showing up when I least...and where I least expect Him. (Don't take this to mean I believe "atheists are the farthest thing from God!"...but sometimes there's a dissonance that needs to be worked out between...confessing to believing a thing...and really believing a thing. How could I truly think an atheist is any farther from Jesus Christ?...though at times I know I have acted upon that...)




I think...and have so often thought so very wrongly...I "have power" over Him...(and that is the nut of religious enticement..."use Jesus to make yourself...BIG"...make yourself the Jesus storehouse...and nobody gets "any" unless it's OK with you). This thing to make ourselves appear big (appear indispensable)...takes as many forms as anything man might find to pursue...money, power, notoriety.

But...I really do believe in the God who knows all the hairs on my head...precisely because He finds me in all my comfortable little hiding spots...and flushes me out. Yes, I believe He sends Jesus. Even to someone...like me.

The term "too big to fail" comes to mind...I think it's a gold ring almost everyone (at one time or another) is enticed to grasp at.

But I can't deny this.
There is One made so small...to succeed.

PS. You know this inuring against legitimate opposition also takes as many forms as postures a man might take. Yes, it's easy enough...if succumbing to the religious bent...to see all others a devils. But to those who also have a little room inside in which they look at themselves...and fall for what they see...

If they are "smart"...well they are only opposed...because others are "dumb".

If they are rich...they are only opposed because others are poor and jealous.


We may just as well admit all our disputes come from someone writing on our little self mirror...a thing we don't like.

I really do believe...Jesus wrote across mine "dead".

Scared the *&%$ outta me...and fought it, till I knew it was right.

Yeah...He was small enough...to get inside and past all the defenses.

 

[1gr8bldr]

I'm Christian, yet they turn me off more than anything I know of. The arrogance of spouting your belief as fact.... and they don't even see it. And then the argument arises as to how it is fact..... because the bible says it so..... what a mess. I do have strong beliefs.... but they are mine, they are what I believe, they are not based on fact, but rather on faith, and I don't expect anyone to see it as fact.

 

[bullethead]

I'm Christian, yet they turn me off more than anything I know of. The arrogance of spouting your belief as fact.... and they don't even see it. And then the argument arises as to how it is fact..... because the bible says it so..... what a mess. I do have strong beliefs.... but they are mine, they are what I believe, they are not based on fact, but rather on faith, and I don't expect anyone to see it as fact.

1gr8bldr bats cleanup for a reason.
Great post

 

[Israel]

These things are necessary.

 

[660griz]

Seriously, now. Apart from the obvious, what is the most off-putting thing people of faith do or say that lowers your opinion of them personally and their faith as a whole?

Praying for the end of time/second coming. All of my family and most of my friends are religious. Thankfully , I never hear this nonsense uttered from them.

 

[atlashunter]

Praying for the end of time/second coming. All of my family and most of my friends are religious. Thankfully , I never hear this nonsense uttered from them.

That's a good one. This life isn't enough. They can't wait for it to end because they expect more. If there is a greater example of greed I don't know what it would be.

 

[oldfella1962]

That's a good one. This life isn't enough. They can't wait for it to end because they expect more. If there is a greater example of greed I don't know what it would be.

it's not always greed for some people though. I'm sure more than a few just seek a senses of justice at life's unfairness. Since there is little true justice in this world, they figure god will "get it right" since he sees every little thing each person does, and will reward them accordingly. Maybe they realize some people really get a raw deal in this life (crippled, live in a dirt poor dangerous country, etc.etc.) and they will get a better deal in the next life.

This poses an interesting question: would you the faithful but financially secure & healthy believer give up your place in heaven (you'll just die and become worm food, no more consciousness) so a person who had a much worse life than you can get an eternal reward? Obviously the bible doesn't talk about such a situation, I'm just making up something completely hypothetical to think about.

 

[660griz]

I'm Christian, yet they turn me off more than anything I know of. The arrogance of spouting your belief as fact.... and they don't even see it. And then the argument arises as to how it is fact..... because the bible says it so..... what a mess. I do have strong beliefs.... but they are mine, they are what I believe, they are not based on fact, but rather on faith, and I don't expect anyone to see it as fact.

Very impressive post.

If all religious folks could be that honest, I don't think our worlds would ever clash.

 

[atlashunter]

it's not always greed for some people though. I'm sure more than a few just seek a senses of justice at life's unfairness. Since there is little true justice in this world, they figure god will "get it right" since he sees every little thing each person does, and will reward them accordingly. Maybe they realize some people really get a raw deal in this life (crippled, live in a dirt poor dangerous country, etc.etc.) and they will get a better deal in the next life.

This poses an interesting question: would you the faithful but financially secure & healthy believer give up your place in heaven (you'll just die and become worm food, no more consciousness) so a person who had a much worse life than you can get an eternal reward? Obviously the bible doesn't talk about such a situation, I'm just making up something completely hypothetical to think about.

Justice isn’t to be found in their beliefs. A fetus that dies in the womb is vaulted into heaven while a Hindu that spent a life in poverty and hardship but was a good person is doomed to burn for eternity. Is that just?

 

[NCHillbilly]

Justice isn’t to be found in their beliefs. A fetus that dies in the womb is vaulted into heaven while a Hindu that spent a life in poverty and hardship but was a good person is doomed to burn for eternity. Is that just?

Don't forget the serial killer/rapist/cannibal who repents of his sins while choking to death on a human baby finger that went down the wrong pipe.

 

[ky55]

Don't forget the serial killer/rapist/cannibal who repents of his sins while choking to death on a human baby finger that went down the wrong pipe.

Saving Jeffrey Dahmer
The world knew Jeffrey Dahmer as a hardened killer. But one pastor knew him as a forgiven sinner.

http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2006/11/saving-jeffrey-dahmer.aspx

..............................................................................................................

“When Dahmer died, I was a staff writer for The Oklahoman. I’ll never forget talking that day with Curt Booth, a member of the Crescent Church of Christ in Oklahoma, about his role in Dahmer’s conversion.
“I know Jeffrey was ready,” Booth told me. “Today, all the angels in heaven are rejoicing because Jeffrey has come home.”
Booth said he had no doubt about the sincerity of Dahmer’s conversion.
“On the great resurrection day, I’m expecting to see him right along there with Abraham, David, Isaac, James, John and all the saints that have lived right up to the modern day,” Booth said.”

https://christianchronicle.org/did-jailhouse-religion-save-jeffrey-dahmer/


*

 

[Israel]

Mercy and grace are most despised by what cannot receive it.
After all the reams of writing and pages of refutations succinctly reduced to "in such and such a situation men will undoubtedly react in accord with the situation as described in specific parameters"

Such as:
Men fear the terror of death...therefore a god must be invented to save them from it.

The type of god is totally culturally reliant. ("If you were in India" the tripe goes, "you'd be a devout Hindu secondary to your religiosity") A religious soul merely seeking what's "at hand" to fix upon.

"You only believe because you have been indoctrinated and not [yet] found means of escape"

And on and on.
So, Dahmer. Is he being mentioned as one so obviously (to whom?) far from a salvation preached as to make the preaching of such a salvation manifestly untenable?
How could a Dahmer...be saved? (Or a Hitler, or a _______________) Use whatever name you must to fill in the blank that makes the obvious distinction between oneself and "them".

Yet, according to the premises so persistently presented (too much alliteration?)... each must be what they are...brain chemistry, conditioning, dispositions, life experiences, indoctrinations, physiologies not yet fully understood...in other words...how could "a" Dahmer not be a Dahmer? And if he is irremediably "locked in" to being so...who is so outside their own strict confines of the above mentioned...to judge him?

Ahhh, this place where men are manifestly stripped of their right to judge other men, being themselves subject to the very same things by which they judge others...are shown to be no more in integrity than as those with sight might amuse themselves by moving and hiding food from a hungry blind man. It can be done, but is it "right"?

This matter of judging is no small thing in the teaching of Jesus Christ. One will find, must find, themselves judged to a perfect consistency...in how they judge. If one says...man cannot be changed, there can be no greater influence than all we have accounted for to enter in, and he is irremediably condemned to being what he is (How could "a" Dahmer be saved?!!!)...this man will find, in the time of needed change (and O! He will find it!)...such a pressing need for relief as he has not yet known...that unless he submit to the reality of One having entered in to the end of redeeming man...he will not be released until the uttermost farthing is paid. The influence...unaccounted for in all of man's calculus.

We preach One who has paid all for those who are both learning and being further convinced...of his own necessity of change.

The man very content with himself, of himself, is utterly unable to account for the existence (in his self righteous judging) of "a" Dahmer...and projects from himself "But Dahmer should know not to be a Dahmer".

And few will see the utter corruption of such reasoning...if, in thinking, (and heart) they hold themselves to be the "better man".

Mercy is here. Its Fount...is not leaving.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Mercy and grace are most despised by what cannot receive it.
After all the reams of writing and pages of refutations succinctly reduced to "in such and such a situation men will undoubtedly react in accord with the situation as described in specific parameters"

Such as:
Men fear the terror of death...therefore a god must be invented to save them from it.

The type of god is totally culturally reliant. ("If you were in India" the tripe goes, "you'd be a devout Hindu secondary to your religiosity") A religious soul merely seeking what's "at hand" to fix upon.

"You only believe because you have been indoctrinated and not [yet] found means of escape"

And on and on.
So, Dahmer. Is he being mentioned as one so obviously (to whom?) far from a salvation preached as to make the preaching of such a salvation manifestly untenable?
How could a Dahmer...be saved? (Or a Hitler, or a _______________) Use whatever name you must to fill in the blank that makes the obvious distinction between oneself and "them".

Yet, according to the premises so persistently presented (too much alliteration?)... each must be what they are...brain chemistry, conditioning, dispositions, life experiences, indoctrinations, physiologies not yet fully understood...in other words...how could "a" Dahmer not be a Dahmer? And if he is irremediably "locked in" to being so...who is so outside their own strict confines of the above mentioned...to judge him?

Ahhh, this place where men are manifestly stripped of their right to judge other men, being themselves subject to the very same things by which they judge others...are shown to be no more in integrity than as those with sight might amuse themselves by moving and hiding food from a hungry blind man. It can be done, but is it "right"?

This matter of judging is no small thing in the teaching of Jesus Christ. One will find, must find, themselves judged to a perfect consistency...in how they judge. If one says...man cannot be changed, there can be no greater influence than all we have accounted for to enter in, and he is irremediably condemned to being what he is (How could "a" Dahmer be saved?!!!)...this man will find, in the time of needed change (and O! He will find it!)...such a pressing need for relief as he has not yet known...that unless he submit to the reality of One having entered in to the end of redeeming man...he will not be released until the uttermost ****hing is paid. The influence...unaccounted for in all of man's calculus.

We preach One who has paid all for those who are both learning and being further convinced...of his own necessity of change.

The man very content with himself, of himself, is utterly unable to account for the existence (in his self righteous judging) of "a" Dahmer...and projects from himself "But Dahmer should know not to be a Dahmer".

And few will see the utter corruption of such reasoning...if, in thinking, (and heart) they hold themselves to be the "better man".

Mercy is here. Its Fount...is not leaving.

I will and can judge Dahmer. He was a perverted, psychotic, murderous, sadistic cannibal. That's not self-righteousness, that's just how it is.

Now, how about that good feller in India burning in eternal torment because he didn't call on Jesus? For the same reason you or I have never called on Vishnu, Buddha, or Anubis?

 

[Spotlite]

it's not always greed for some people though.

No one looks forward to dying. We just don’t fear it. Saying you’re ready only means you’re prepared. We are content in everything.

It’s not greed at all.

Below is an excellent point, there’s a reason that 660 is not hearing any of that. It’s not happening.

Praying for the end of time/second coming. All of my family and most of my friends are religious. Thankfully , I never hear this nonsense uttered from them.

 

[Spotlite]

how about that good feller in India burning in eternal torment because he didn't call on Jesus? For the same reason you or I have never called on Vishnu, Buddha, or Anubis?

Maybe........Whosoever will ???

 

[BassMan31]

I will and can judge Dahmer. He was a perverted, psychotic, murderous, sadistic cannibal. That's not self-righteousness, that's just how it is.

Now, how about that good feller in India burning in eternal torment because he didn't call on Jesus? For the same reason you or I have never called on Vishnu, Buddha, or Anubis?

It is not for the same reason.

 

[NCHillbilly]

It is not for the same reason.

Yes, it is-whether you will admit it or not. If a Hindu missionary came up to you tomorrow and tried to convert you, would you listen to him? You are a product of your culture, just like he is. Tell me why you have never prayed to Anubis? Maybe because you think he is a false god worshipped by other people who are different than you? Why would the Indian guy think any differently about your God?

 

[matt79brown]

In the 17th chapter of John, Jesus prayed that believers would be ''one''. It was important to Him but His followers don't seem to concerned with the idea. As a believer I try to follow Christ's example rather than obey the rules of man's organizations. I understand what Mahatma Gandhi meant when he was asked about Christianity and he replied '' I like their Christ, not their Christian.'' You may hear me argue some points too often, but you'll never hear me put myself in God's shoes. I believe there is a God, and I'm not Him. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. As far as godless reprobates are concerned, Jesus would've sat down and had supper with 'em. I'm with Jesus!