Re-penance? Or repentance?

Thread starter #1
Another great nugget of heart-journey truth I can't take credit for. Used by permission
---------------------

You may wonder where the idea of “repentance” as fixing behavior again and again in an attempt to get right with God came from, when it should read as a “change of mind or belief”. Well the early Roman Catholic state at times accepted alms for absolution and prayer, known as a “penance”. This Latin phrase is still used to mean a payment for sin. In the English then, that Latin/catholic influence translated “metanoeo” stuck as “RE-penance” - or paying for sin again and again! The very idea of RE-PENANCE means Christ’s payment was insufficient for our sin, and is abhorrent to the whole of Scripture. Jesus said to believe in Him - to think differently, to renew our minds to the Truth of God as our Source - is true repentance. For as we think and believe differently, our behavior does change, and the kingdom of God is very near indeed.
- from Mike Q Daniel
 
I think it originally meant more of a conversion. I never thought about the Catholic Church “RE-penance” connection. I see it more as a changing of one mindset from believing you can save yourself to that of believing Jesus is the way.

The whole concept the Jews believed in was salvation by following the Law. Jesus told them that way doesn't work so try my way. That pretty much sums up the Gospel.
 
Thread starter #3
There are undercurrents of quid pro quo all over. Many leaders are still stuck in the Jewish historical tradition of the tithe, while the New Testament writers speak only about giving from the (new) heart and not a percentage. They'll even bring out all the curses without the understanding of the liberality and freedom of new covenant giving. It's as sad as paying an indulgence to cover behavior. Ignorance of what the cross does to the seat of our desire (a new heart of obedience per Rom ch6) is the real culprit in the pulpit. No pun intended
 
Thread starter #4
Here's a reminder and encouragement about God's voice, when others, by shame, try to clog the pure path ...
_______
Today we find it very difficult to trust that Truth is first a Person—Jesus—and not a position. However, it’s getting easier to discern those who have been induced to build their position and to prosecute by it—“I’m right! You’re wrong!”—from those who remain at rest in Christ, content with the gospel and with Him to be for others what He is for them—the way, the truth, and the life.

In the growing cacophony of this world’s arguments and the loud mouths seeking to influence and lead, remember the Shepherd. Quit trying to make sense of a stranger’s voice—he or she doesn’t truly care for you—and return to the one you know and trust. Listen for Jesus. He calls you by name.

John 10:1-5 MSG “Let me set this before you as plainly as I can. If a person climbs over or through the fence of a sheep pen instead of going through the gate, you know he’s up to no good—a sheep rustler! The shepherd walks right up to the gate. The gatekeeper opens the gate to him and the sheep recognize his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he gets them all out, he leads them and they follow because they are familiar with his voice. They won’t follow a stranger’s voice but will scatter because they aren’t used to the sound of it.”

If you’ve been scattered by a sheep rustler, you’re okay because the perfect leader and Shepherd knows you by name.


(For a lot more like this, make use of Ralph Harris's web site at ralphharris.org.)
#shepherd #truth #Jesus #perfect
 

Madman

Senior Member
Another great nugget of heart-journey truth I can't take credit for. Used by permission
---------------------

You may wonder where the idea of “repentance” as fixing behavior again and again in an attempt to get right with God came from, when it should read as a “change of mind or belief”. Well the early Roman Catholic state at times accepted alms for absolution and prayer, known as a “penance”. This Latin phrase is still used to mean a payment for sin. In the English then, that Latin/catholic influence translated “metanoeo” stuck as “RE-penance” - or paying for sin again and again! The very idea of RE-PENANCE means Christ’s payment was insufficient for our sin, and is abhorrent to the whole of Scripture. Jesus said to believe in Him - to think differently, to renew our minds to the Truth of God as our Source - is true repentance. For as we think and believe differently, our behavior does change, and the kingdom of God is very near indeed.
- from Mike Q Daniel

A sweet, warm and fuzzy, word from a man.

What he misses is that repentance is not a Roman Catholic idea, repentance is biblical and has been applied since the beginning of the church. The Eastern Church (The Orthodox), the Western Church (The Catholic), the Coptic Church (Egypt), The Anglican Church (Ireland, Scotland, England) all have the sacrament of reconciliation since the beginning.

Saved, sanctified, and on the way to heaven is a very dangerous doctrine.
 
Thread starter #6
Saved, sanctified, and on the way to heaven is a very dangerous doctrine.
Wow. I hope you're being sarcastic here.

Nevertheless, you've just outlined 3 clear, scriptural points of grace through faith and His life giving result. These are not works of religious repentance, so that none should boast (Ephesians 2:8 -10). A fleshly good behavior penance, or repentance, will have all the whitewash and approval of men, but it will be of no consequence to the One who judges no one by outward appearances. The true heart of repentance is renewing our minds to what Christ has done, believing Him, and by that complete dependence and trust, the fruit of His Spirit is sown.

Saved, sanctified, and on the way to heaven is a very dangerous doctrine? Perhaps for the devil, for he delights in seeing Christians fruitless, lifeless and on the hamster wheel of self-effort. But not for the ones who enjoy the fruit of the cross and resurrection, as they "grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus", and learn to express their abounding union with Jesus.

Consider: “It’s the goodness and kindness of God which leads us to repentance, Christ is completely changing how we think and live” (Romans 2:4b, paraphrase). What better direction to put our mustard size faith, but in the overwhelmingly successful obedience of Jesus, in and thru us every day.

1 Peter 1:13
Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Once saved always saved is not now nor has it ever been a Biblical teach nor a teaching of the church since it's foundation.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Wow. I hope you're being sarcastic here.

Nevertheless, you've just outlined 3 clear, scriptural points of grace through faith and His life giving result. These are not works of religious repentance, so that none should boast (Ephesians 2:8 -10). A fleshly good behavior penance, or repentance, will have all the whitewash and approval of men, but it will be of no consequence to the One who judges no one by outward appearances. The true heart of repentance is renewing our minds to what Christ has done, believing Him, and by that complete dependence and trust, the fruit of His Spirit is sown.

Saved, sanctified, and on the way to heaven is a very dangerous doctrine? Perhaps for the devil, for he delights in seeing Christians fruitless, lifeless and on the hamster wheel of self-effort. But not for the ones who enjoy the fruit of the cross and resurrection, as they "grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus", and learn to express their abounding union with Jesus.

Consider: “It’s the goodness and kindness of God which leads us to repentance, Christ is completely changing how we think and live” (Romans 2:4b, paraphrase). What better direction to put our mustard size faith, but in the overwhelmingly successful obedience of Jesus, in and thru us every day.

1 Peter 1:13
Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Let's not start proof texting please. Scripture speaks time and time again about not just running the race but finishing it. Just because you start and run does not mean you finish.

There are passages about apostates, those who once believed and then fell away.

Salvation is available for all but unless we complete the race we dont get the prize.
 
Thread starter #9
Let's not start proof texting please. Scripture speaks time and time again about not just running the race but finishing it. Just because you start and run does not mean you finish.

There are passages about apostates, those who once believed and then fell away.

Salvation is available for all but unless we complete the race we dont get the prize.
Then it is up to you to define just what a good finish is.

An apostate never has believed. Jesus didnt say He "once knew them but they departed", He said He NEVER knew them!, their heart was never purified, they had a self righteous form of religion but never had the Source ... Christ, living within. THAT'S the big difference between the Christian indwelt life and pseudo religious "void of the Spirit" life. He who is joined to Christ is one spirit with Him. (That's union, that's security)

Consider then, how much stumblings tilt the scale? Big sins? Those we forget to confess? Define the line in the sand, if the cross and resurrection was not enough.

The "lost salvation" teaching actually looses the New Covenant security of every believer. And should we believe that such security is NOT a part of the gift of eternal life, then we don't have eternal, but "partial" life, full of the shame, condemnation and lies of the accuser of the brethren.
God came to deliver us from sin and death and in doing so, He infused His life within ours. We were 'sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise ', in order that we might know His life is within, and that sin is no longer 'a good fit' to the children of God.
That's right, a believers new heart does not want to sin ... not because of being afraid of losing life, but because of the Life within, the Christ who is alive and growing us.

I get it, to teach redemption can be lost with the result... that all who trust Christ will be scared to sin away the Life. Makes good earthly sense but has no validity in scripture. Instead, It's the goodness and grace of God that teaches us to deny ungodliness and live in dependence on Christ. It does not make room for the group which say we can sin to our heart's content, because if we really understand our redemption and especially our transformation in Christ, we'd understand we have brand new desires for righteousness.

Maybe all those behavioral verses at the ends of several epistles ought to be understood from what was written at the front of the epistle ... those truths about the believer being complete in Christ, indwelt, made new in spirit and heart, dead to sin and alive to God ... without an ounce of their flesh-ly self effort to accomplish this new life.

Maybe we'd rather trust how well we keep the path and not trust what God says He's given us ... all things for life and Godliness.

Yes, maybe that's a bigger dilemma than trusting a once for all free gift.

I'll take the easy yoke and light burden of Christ living within than all the self inflicted condemnation of lone ranger Christianity.

Yes, Christ in you, in the beloved, the hope of glory.


Peace.

----------
** FYI, for better understanding, I'd suggest these solid resources for the body of Christ:
"The Cross Worked" by Zack Maldonado,
or "Relaxing with God",
and "Church without Religion" by Andrew Farley,
and "God's Astounding Opnion of You" by Ralph Harris., on Amazon.
 
Last edited:

Madman

Senior Member
Then it is up to you to define just what a good finish is.

An apostate never has believed. Jesus didnt say He "once knew them but they departed", He said He NEVER knew them!, their heart was never purified, they had a self righteous form of religion but never had the Source ... Christ, living within. THAT'S the big difference between the Christian indwelt life and pseudo religious "void of the Spirit" life. He who is joined to Christ is one spirit with Him. (That's union, that's security)

Consider then, how much stumblings tilt the scale? Big sins? Those we forget to confess? Define the line in the sand, if the cross and resurrection was not enough.

The "lost salvation" teaching actually looses the New Covenant security of every believer. And should we believe that such security is NOT a part of the gift of eternal life, then we don't have eternal, but "partial" life, full of the shame, condemnation and lies of the accuser of the brethren.
God came to deliver us from sin and death and in doing so, He infused His life within ours. We were 'sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise ', in order that we might know His life is within, and that sin is no longer 'a good fit' to the children of God.
That's right, a believers new heart does not want to sin ... not because of being afraid of losing life, but because of the Life within, the Christ who is alive and growing us.

I get it, to teach redemption can be lost with the result... that all who trust Christ will be scared to sin away the Life. Makes good earthly sense but has no validity in scripture. Instead, It's the goodness and grace of God that teaches us to deny ungodliness and live in dependence on Christ. It does not make room for the group which say we can sin to our heart's content, because if we really understand our redemption and especially our transformation in Christ, we'd understand we have brand new desires for righteousness.

Maybe all those behavioral verses at the ends of several epistles ought to be understood from what was written at the front of the epistle ... those truths about the believer being complete in Christ, indwelt, made new in spirit and heart, dead to sin and alive to God ... without an ounce of their flesh-ly self effort to accomplish this new life.

Maybe we'd rather trust how well we keep the path and not trust what God says He's given us ... all things for life and Godliness.

Yes, maybe that's a bigger dilemma than trusting a once for all free gift.

I'll take the easy yoke and light burden of Christ living within than all the self inflicted condemnation of lone ranger Christianity.

Yes, Christ in you, in the beloved, the hope of glory.


Peace.

----------
** FYI, for better understanding, I'd suggest these solid resources for the body of Christ:
"The Cross Worked" by Zack Maldonado,
or "Relaxing with God",
and "Church without Religion" by Andrew Farley,
and "God's Astounding Opnion of You" by Ralph Harris., on Amazon.
The very definition of apostate is one who once believed and then walked away. One of important councils of the church was to determine if the apostates, the ones who denied the faith in face of persecution, should be allowed back into the church. Please let not redefine words that have had definitions for centuries.

There are no passages or church teachings that provide for once saved always saved.

Let's break the idea of once saved always saved into two parts.

"Once saved" - No doubt that there is an initial stage of salvation. The believer comes into a saving relation with Christ. Christ's life is infused into our soul. At that moment we are justified, in good standing with God. His Grace is dwelling in us.
A good place to see that is in Ephesians 2:8-9. However Scripture does not reveal salvation as a one time event that happened in the past. There are other dimensions to salvation.

Look at Ephesians 2:10 "10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." So in that passage alone we see the initial stage of salvation and the on going process that is defined by works.

In 1 Cor. 1:18 Paul uses the future tense of "but to those of us who are being saved". in Matt 10:22 we see the admonition of Christ to continue in the Christian life. “You will be hated by all men for my name’s sake, but he who endures to the end will be saved.”

Scripture reveals that we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved but it is not over in the initial call. There are no participation trophies.

The idea of always saved is also in conflict with Scripture.

In 1 Cor 9:27 Paul makes the statement of mortifying the body. He says, “lest I myself should become “disqualified.”

I understand the reformation, John Calvin specifically, made popular the belief that if you can lose your salvation. Scripture teaches otherwise 1 John 5:15,16,17.

We see the parables of keeping the lamps filled with oil and watching for the master.

First century writings such as The Teaching of the Twelve “Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time” .

You and I will probably never agree on this topic, I will trust the teachings of Scripture and the 2000 year old church over the man, Calvin.

God's peace.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Then it is up to you to define just what a good finish is.

An apostate never has believed. Jesus didn't say He "once knew them but they departed", He said He NEVER knew them!, their heart was never purified, they had a self righteous form of religion but never had the Source ... Christ, living within. THAT'S the big difference between the Christian indwelt life and pseudo religious "void of the Spirit" life. He who is joined to Christ is one spirit with Him. (That's union, that's security)

Matt. 7:16 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

This teaching is about true and false disciples, I don't see a reference to apostates.
----------
** FYI, for better understanding, I'd suggest these solid resources for the body of Christ:
"The Cross Worked" by Zack Maldonado,
or "Relaxing with God",
and "Church without Religion" by Andrew Farley,
and "God's Astounding Opnion of You" by Ralph Harris., on Amazon.
All of those are comfortable writings. Men 2000+ years removed from the teachings of the Apostles .

I would rather read the Church Fathers and the doctors of the Church. They taught what had been taught and passed down by the Apostles.

St. Thomas Aquinas - The Summa Theologica.
Augustine
Irenaeus
Etc., etc.,
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #12
If repenting and turning from sin saves you then almost every religion or way of life that teaches good morals would give eternal life ...but that is false and we know the only thing that's saves us is faith in Jesus Christ and his FINISHED WORK ......

Now with that being said turning from sin is a fruit of SALVATION but it doesn't keep you saved or make you more RIGHTEOUS it's just walking in sonship.

That's union, identity and life from the dead.
 
Top