Relevance with revelation

Thread starter #1
Christianity isn't Judaism Part 2, and it's not mixed with Judaism. It's not Judeo-Christianity. The Old Covenant, upon which Judaism is based, led *to* the New Covenant. At that point, the Old Covenant was made *obsolete.* (Hebrews 8:13). Notice that Hebrews doesn't say that it became part of the New Covenant, or the basis for the New Covenant. It was made *obsolete,* and "growing old" and "ready to vanish away."

Something that is old and ready to vanish away doesn't get mixed in with something new! (Something about new wine and old wineskins?). :) No, they don't mix at all. Out with the Old and in with the New. It's a brand new life, not an old dead religion!

From Joel Breseke
 
Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Romans 11:19
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."

What does or how does Romans 11 bring it all together? It seems to be addressing Gentiles becoming member to the Commonwealth of Israel through a grafting.
 
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I understand and can see that the Old Covenant is gone, but reading Romans 11, I still see some form of Judeo-Christianity.
 
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Christianity isn't Judaism Part 2, and it's not mixed with Judaism. It's not Judeo-Christianity. The Old Covenant, upon which Judaism is based, led *to* the New Covenant. At that point, the Old Covenant was made *obsolete.* (Hebrews 8:13). Notice that Hebrews doesn't say that it became part of the New Covenant, or the basis for the New Covenant. It was made *obsolete,* and "growing old" and "ready to vanish away."

Something that is old and ready to vanish away doesn't get mixed in with something new! (Something about new wine and old wineskins?). :) No, they don't mix at all. Out with the Old and in with the New. It's a brand new life, not an old dead religion!

From Joel Breseke
That doesn't mean that the laws were done away. If that were the case, Jesus would have said he came to do away with the law. Instead, He said he came to fulfill the law. and not a jot or tiddle would pass from the law until all things were fulfilled.

Isn't that why in 2 Peter, Chapter 2, he tells us all about the condemnation that people are heaping upon themselves because they are breaking the laws concerning sexual sins?
 
I understand and can see that the Old Covenant is gone, but reading Romans 11, I still see some from of Judeo-Christianity.
I think we confuse what the old covenant was, and what was really made obsolete.

The law was not the covenant. It was the rules to live by. The covenant was that God would forgive sins if you followed certain practices of sacrifice and purification. Not that this is the only covenant that God made, but it is the major one that was done away with at Christ's death.

God is a God of covenants. He made one with Abraham. Another with Moses. He has made a covenant with us also
 
Thread starter #6
The law was given so that it would show our sinfulness. But we have died to the law through the body of Christ, in His death and in His resurrection.
When the Commandment came, sin revives and I die. The law was given through Moses, but Grace and Truth are from Jesus Christ. Big difference between the two.

The love affair with Moses it's not the motivation anymore, or should it be. Most of the church is just not getting this. Sorry if this looks controversial but it is the cross and resurrection that brings new life and birth, making us new creations. The law of Moses just stirs up the sin which indwells our unredeemed bodies into action. Trusting in Jesus and depending on him are the power to keep sin and the flesh influences at bay. A crucial understanding, which also gives relevance to Rom 8:1 ... there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ. A past perfect work makes this a present reality.

Christ came to give us new life, this is the bringing in of the new hope - something that the law of sin and death can never do.

We have a choice to accept what the cross and Resurrection did for us and did to us, or go back to Moses as the means by which we have righteousness.
As a friend often rightly says, Flirting with Moses is cheating on Jesus.
 
The law was given so that it would show our sinfulness.
Yes, The law is death, but grace thru Christ is life everlasting.

But we have died to the law through the body of Christ, in His death and in His resurrection.
But the Law is not dead. It is still there, heaping condemnation on the fallen, whether angels or humans. It is there to point the direction of travel for us, and to let us know if we are not heading in the right paths

The love affair with Moses it's not the motivation anymore, or should it be. Most of the church is just not getting this. Sorry if this looks controversial but it is the cross and resurrection that brings new life and birth, making us new creations.
You need to read 2 Peter 1 and 2 Peter 2. In 1 Peter, he talks about how if we draw near to God we can never fall, but the theme of 2 Peter is how the law is still there as a standard for all to be judged. Peter is using a carrot in the first chapter to try to convince people of the rewards of following God, but in chapter 2, he is warning them that there is a rod of punishment if they don't heed the law.

The law of Moses just stirs up the sin which indwells our unredeemed bodies into action.
the law does not stir up anything. It is a measurement tool or a plumb line. It points to truth.

Trusting in Jesus and depending on him are the power to keep sin and the flesh influences at bay. A crucial understanding, which also gives relevance to Rom 8:1 ... there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ. A past perfect work makes this a present reality.
yes, this is the truth that 2 Peter Chapter 1 teaches. That as we seek and draw near to God, we will not fall into sin and the temptations that our flesh desires, we will not obey those temptations.


Christ came to give us new life, this is the bringing in of the new hope - something that the law of sin and death can never do.
A HEARTY AMEN!

We have a choice to accept what the cross and Resurrection did for us and did to us, or go back to Moses as the means by which we have righteousness.
As a friend often rightly says, Flirting with Moses is cheating on Jesus.
I am not saying we need to go back to the covenant that Moses at all. What I am saying is the Law is still the standard by which the unrepentant will be judged. The Law did not cease to exist because of Christ. In fact, Jesus gave us an even harder law to follow.... Love the Lord your God will ALL your heart, and your neighbor as yourself.
 
I think we confuse what the old covenant was, and what was really made obsolete.

The law was not the covenant. It was the rules to live by. The covenant was that God would forgive sins if you followed certain practices of sacrifice and purification. Not that this is the only covenant that God made, but it is the major one that was done away with at Christ's death.

God is a God of covenants. He made one with Abraham. Another with Moses. He has made a covenant with us also
Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

Romans 11:27
And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

I'm still a bit confuse as to what was made obsolete vs what Jesus fulfilled.
 
Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

Romans 11:27
And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

I'm still a bit confuse as to what was made obsolete vs what Jesus fulfilled.
I am not sure why you are using Romans 9 in this context. Paul is speaking of his turmoil over the jewish nation not accepting Christ.

9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen

Romans 11:26-27 is a quotation from Isaiah 59. As Paul says in vs 25 I believe... As it is written.... then in vs 26 starts quoting Is. 59:20.

The covenant that God made with Moses thru the law was the covenant of forgiveness of sins thru obedience and sacrifice. This is the covenant that was superseded by the sacrifice of Christ. As Paul says in Heb 10:26.. if we continue to knowingly continue in sin, there is not another sacrifice that will cover those sins.

New Living Translation
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.

To continue in known sin and try to justify our lifestyle choices in spite of the teachings of the Bible is a weighty matter.
 
I think the referring to the law... is the 10 commandments, not the rituals that they adopted. Thus, those in Christ are not governed any longer by the law, but rather by the spirit. And if by the spirit, then those laws will not be broken.
 

Madman

Senior Member
The love affair with Moses it's not the motivation anymore, or should it be. Most of the church is just not getting this. Sorry if this looks controversial but it is the cross and resurrection that brings new life and birth, making us new creations.
what is the evidence of this?
 
I think the referring to the law... is the 10 commandments, not the rituals that they adopted. Thus, those in Christ are not governed any longer by the law, but rather by the spirit. And if by the spirit, then those laws will not be broken.
What did Jesus mean when he said he didn't come to abolish the Law but fulfill it?
 
Matthew 5:18
18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

or "Till all is fulfilled."
The "all things" in both cases are the great facts of our Lord's life, death, resurrection, and the establishment of the kingdom of God.

Perhaps Jesus has accomplished what he came to accomplish and therefore fulfilled the Law. Jesus does not nullify it, but came so that everything in it will be accomplished.
 
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What did Jesus mean when he said he didn't come to abolish the Law but fulfill it?
i think he meant that life in the spirit fulfilled [always does] the law. It's like I told my wife. i would never cheat on her because of my beliefs, yet love trumps my beliefs. This is now why I would never cheat on her. yet... is both does the same
 
A verse to look at... can't remember... If the gentiles, who by nature obey the law... I had better go look
 
Thread starter #19
what is the evidence of this?
Frequent personal observation.

Been to several meetings where guilt, not the Spirit of God, is the motivation for works of righteousness. Rare indeed to hear a sermon on Galatians 5:18 ! ... But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

The teaching of depending on what Christ has done for AND to a believer in raising them to new life - and the subsequent fruit which follows - is nearly left out or practically anathema in churches today. Any fruit of the Spirit comes from grace thru faith ... a needed revelation today, and a motivating mind renewal truth of our identity in Christ.
 
Thread starter #20
Romans 10:4-5
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5For concerning the righteousness that is by the Law, Moses writes: “The man who does these things will live by them.”

That option is still available if anyone want to try it.
Scripture goes on to say that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. The law is SO PERFECT that not a man on earth save the Son of Man Himself, fulfilled the righteous requirement of it, therefore it is a curse to fallen, sinful man.

And that's the point, the law "made nothing, or no man perfect", its design was meant to lead convicted sinners away from Moses into the grace and mercy of Christ.

Romans 3:21 says that APART from the law the righteousness of God has been brought fourth or manifested. If we are indwelt of Christ by faith in the finished work of the cross and resurrection, then we have His righteousness by grace thru faith.
It's a better one, surpassing that of the Pharisees, because it is NOT from ourselves or our religious self-effort. It's a gift of mercy and grace.
 
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