Salvation or Probation

Sin?

I don’t think you’re taking away from the scripture unless you know you’re misrepresenting it. That’s the purpose of studying, you realize you got a little off, correct and move forward, but to continue knowing you’re a little off, yea you’re taking away from scripture.

I’ve said it before, regardless of the denomination, I believe that every person that is honestly seeking God and his ways will find it regardless of the name over the church doors.
I'm with you 100% on taking away from scripture. You'd have to be doing it purposely. That could get your name removed as per Revelation.

Sin? Please explain how sin can get your name removed from the Book of Life. If sin can get you removed, what was the mission of the Word to incarnate as a man and die on a cross?
 
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I believe he knew a “man” would betray him, I believe he knew it was Judas, but I don’t believe he predestined Judas to do that.
You believe God left something as important as the death of his Son for redemption and salvation up to Judas? I guess the Jews had a choice too. Maybe even the Romans.

Remember this was God's plan for the salvation of the world. You think he left it up to any man or nation? Maybe Isaac, or Jacob. Perhaps Mary. Maybe some other person in the lineage of Jesus. Then once he got here. Satan maybe. Or if the Jews and Romans wouldn't kill him maybe the Egyptians would.

I can't see the fate of Jesus being sent to the earth to die on a cross being left up to happenstance. This was not something that God just foresaw. He orchestrated it. God raised Pharoah up for this very purpose. He put a Stumbling Stone in Zion.

Maybe read Romans 9-11.
 
I would think you’re correct if they’re there before the creation of the earth.

Although I have heard it preached that you’re names are not written there until you’re saved.
It's the same passage that says they can be removed. It is confusing.
And just for removing what scripture says, not sin.

The same passage that says the names were entered before creation. Not when one accepts Jesus.
 
Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
You believe God left something as important as the death of his Son for redemption and salvation up to Judas? I guess the Jews had a choice too. Maybe even the Romans.

Remember this was God's plan for the salvation of the world. You think he left it up to any man or nation? Maybe Isaac, or Jacob. Perhaps Mary. Maybe some other person in the lineage of Jesus. Then once he got here. Satan maybe. Or if the Jews and Romans wouldn't kill him maybe the Egyptians would.

I can't see the fate of Jesus being sent to the earth to die on a cross being left up to happenstance. This was not something that God just foresaw. He orchestrated it. God raised Pharoah up for this very purpose. He put a Stumbling Stone in Zion.

Maybe read Romans 9-11.
No I don’t believe it was left up to Judas. I believe “a man” any man, some man would and was.....but I believe Judas had a choice, I just believe God knew what that choice would be.

Sort of like knowing that Peter would deny him. He knew Job also.

I guess what I’m saying is if it’s already purposed for me to serve.........is there really any desire or effort from me needed? That creates issues for “whosoever will”?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I'm with you 100% on taking away from scripture. You'd have to be doing it purposely. That could get your name removed as per Revelation.

Sin? Please explain how sin can get your name removed from the Book of Life. If sin can get you removed, what was the mission of the Word to incarnate as a man and die on a cross?
So we can go before him and have all sin removed without taking a sacrifice to a Priest.

But what if we don’t go before him, is there any forgiveness; past present and future?

I’m with you, just curious as how the following scriptures are viewed and taught by those that believe that it’s impossible to sin after becoming a child of God.

Exodus 32, Revelation 22, Galatians 1, and 2 Peter 2 are a few spots that creates a hurdle for that.
 
So we can go before him and have all sin removed without taking a sacrifice to a Priest.

But what if we don’t go before him, is there any forgiveness; past present and future?

I’m with you, just curious as how the following scriptures are viewed and taught by those that believe that it’s impossible to sin after becoming a child of God.
Does OSAS or salvation assurance go with or against free will? One would maybe think if we had free will, we could lose the salvation that we achieved with that free will.
I mean if free will is the means needed to achieve salvation, then it would stand to reason it would be the means of losing it.

I used to believe that maybe one lost their free will once they received salvation. That was the reason they couldn't lose salvation, because they turned over there will to the will of God.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
There is no such thing as free will. It is a nice thought but a complete impossibility. The only will we have is to continually run to evil. Unless Jesus Christ sets you free and draws you by His Holy Spirit, you will not come Period!

John 6:65
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
There is no such thing as free will. It is a nice thought but a complete impossibility. The only will we have is to continually run to evil. Unless Jesus Christ sets you free and draws you by His Holy Spirit, you will not come Period!

John 6:65
I don’t really like using labels such as “free will” myself, but that’s the popular term here.

I agree on being drawn by the spirit. Do you think a man can resist that? I do, (for whoever will) and that’s what I call “free will” and I understand that label may not be the correct terminology.
 
I don’t really like using labels such as “free will” myself, but that’s the popular term here.

I agree on being drawn by the spirit. Do you think a man can resist that? I do, (for whoever will) and that’s what I call “free will” and I understand that label may not be the correct terminology.
What about when Saul became Paul? He wasn't seeking Jesus. In fact he taught against him. His will was overcome by God's will.

I guess if he had not accepted, then God would go to plan "B" and elect Tyrone.
Then again though God would have known with foreknowledge that Paul would not have accepted and just elected Tyrone first.
 
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Could anyone in the lineage of Jesus have changed their will and not provided the Son of God? From Abraham to Mary? Even before Abraham.

Was God just using foreknowledge of His Son's lineage or did he cause it?

Romans 9:11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

I can't see God's will being different from his plan. God's plan is based on His will, not foreknowledge.
 
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Spineyman

Senior Member
I don’t really like using labels such as “free will” myself, but that’s the popular term here.

I agree on being drawn by the spirit. Do you think a man can resist that? I do, (for whoever will) and that’s what I call “free will” and I understand that label may not be the correct terminology.
No sir I do not believe a man can resist. Like I said before, you are dead in your sin and trespasses. Dead men don't do anything. You believe they could resist, then do you believe that Lazarus could have resisted the calling forth of the Son of Man when He called him from the grave?
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
What about when Saul became Paul? He wasn't seeking Jesus. In fact he taught against him. His will was overcome by God's will.

I guess if he had not accepted, then God would go to plan "B" and elect Tyrone.
Then again though God would have known with foreknowledge that Paul would not have accepted and just elected Tyrone first.
Foolishness, utter foolishness. No one can resist God's will and He does not have a plan B. Man makes his plans and the Lord directs his steps.


Isaiah 14:26-27
26This is the plan devised for the whole earth, and this is the hand stretched out over all the nations. 27The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back?

2 Chronicles 20:6
and said, "O LORD, God of our fathers, are You not the God who is in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand, and no one can stand against You.

Proverbs 19:21
Many plans are in a man's heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail.

Isaiah 43:13
Even from eternity I am He, and none can deliver out of My hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"

Jeremiah 44:28
Those who escape the sword will return from Egypt to Judah, few in number, and the whole remnant of Judah who went to dwell in the land of Egypt will know whose word will stand, Mine or theirs!

Jeremiah 49:20
Therefore hear the plans that the LORD has made against Edom and the strategies He has devised against the people of Teman: The little ones of the flock will surely be dragged away, and their pasture will be made desolate because of them.

Ezekiel 26:14
I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread the fishing nets. You will never be rebuilt, for I, the LORD, have spoken, declares the Lord GOD.'

Daniel 4:31
While the words were still in the king's mouth, a voice came from heaven: "It is decreed to you, King Nebuchadnezzar, that the kingdom has departed from you.

Daniel 4:35
All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'"


For the LORD of hosts has purposed, and who shall cancel it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
the Lord
Isaiah 23:9
The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth.
Isaiah 43:13
Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Isaiah 46:11
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
his
Isaiah 9:12
The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
2 Chronicles 20:6
And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?
Job 9:12
Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
No sir I do not believe a man can resist. Like I said before, you are dead in your sin and trespasses. Dead men don't do anything. You believe they could resist, then do you believe that Lazarus could have resisted the calling forth of the Son of Man when He called him from the grave?
Ok, I agree mostly. Yes I think a man can resist. I’ve seen many walk and “run”.

“Almost thou persuaded me”.

Don’t take this as just disagreeing with you, I’m just saying I believe a man can turn away. Otherwise, whosoever will is not really whosever will. It would be whosever I called. Just my opinion though.
 
I have felt like I've quenched the Spirit a few times. I feel like I have free will but then when I read scripture it makes me think I don't.

Even if God doesn't cause things to happen by his will and plan, he still used foreknowledge to see that his plan and will happened.

So let's say he didn't cause the lineage of Jesus but just foresaw that it happened a certain way without his control. Either way it still happened according to the plan and will of the Father.

Suppose I'm trying to decide to wear my green shirt or my red shirt. I choose the green shirt. God through foreknowledge knew that I would choose the green shirt.
So how could I have any other choice? I can't then choose the red shirt because my choice has already been seen.
In a way free will is the same as predestination. It's all been seen by God.

Some things that happen such as the birth of Jesus just didn't happen by free will. They happened by God's intervention and plan.
Maybe some things do and some things don't.
 
I once believed that God predestined the events from Adam to Jesus to make sure his plan came about. And then he turned the world over to free will.
Then when Jesus returns, God will once again use pre-destiny.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I stand at the door and knock, IF any man hear my voice AND open the door.......
 
Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

Could this lack of fear be called Blessed Assurance?

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Who did he predestined? Creation, everyone, Gentiles, individuals?

No one can bring any charge against God's elect. Jesus intercedes for those His Father sent to him. God's love for us is so strong that no one can separate us from Him.

This from Romans 8.
 
Romans 9:11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

Whose election? Israel, Gentiles, Jesus, or individuals?

God said; “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Does this make God unjust? No it just means that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
It does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Another example of how God show's mercy on some and hardens others. This is what a Potter does;

Romans 9:17
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Why in the world does God do this? They asked; "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"
 

apoint

Senior Member
Predestined or free will.. Its never 1 or the other. They both exist together. For instance, You have to except Jesus as your savior equals free will.
Also, God knows the beginning and the end, predestined.
Also, Rev 22: 19.......... God shall take away his part out of the book of life...... Which would be Gods free will.... God also has free will and He predestines.
 
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