Scientism

[WaltL1]

According to Scripture, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

The resurrection of Jesus is itself the proof - "For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:31

Scripture is not the same as other written claims. It has the power to impart the faith needed for belief, and the Holy Spirit adds his testimony to the truth of Scripture. Scripture also describes people of noble character searching the Scriptures to see if the proclamation of Christ's resurrection is true.

Once Scripture does its work of imparting faith to the hearer, the hearer may receive additional confirmations by experiencing power over sin, deliverance, healing, miracles, fulfilled prophecies, etc.

Scripture is not the same as other written claims. It has the power to impart the faith needed for belief

I would contend that Scripture doesn't have the "power" to do anything.
I would contend the power/influence is dependent on the person reading the scripture.
You quoted scripture in your post above...….. the nonbelievers who read it still don't believe.
Did the scripture not unleash its power on these particular readers of it?
Or are the readers not swayed by it for various reasons?
Lots of books, lots of writings, on lots of subjects that have inspired people or led them down a certain path. Others read those same books and writings and not a darn thing happens or changes.
That's pretty good evidence that its not the words that "do" anything, its the individual's receptiveness to the words that determine the results.
Words (including scripture) are just words. Its the individual reader's psyche that determines whether those words have the power to affect them ... or not.

 

[bullethead]

I would contend that Scripture doesn't have the "power" to do anything.
I would contend the power/influence is dependent on the person reading the scripture.
You quoted scripture in your post above...….. the nonbelievers who read it still don't believe.
Did the scripture not unleash its power on these particular readers of it?
Or are the readers not swayed by it for various reasons?
Lots of books, lots of writings, on lots of subjects that have inspired people or led them down a certain path. Others read those same books and writings and not a darn thing happens or changes.
That's pretty good evidence that its not the words that "do" anything, its the individual's receptiveness to the words that determine the results.
Words (including scripture) are just words. Its the individual reader's psyche that determines whether those words have the power to affect them ... or not.

Excellent post Walt.
To Claim that Scripture has some sort of power means it is no more or less influential or powerful than anything else written which has the same effect on people.

 

[WaltL1]

Excellent post Walt.
To Claim that Scripture has some sort of power means it is no more or less influential or powerful than anything else written which has the same effect on people.

That's what makes claims like this nothing more than just another claim -

Scripture is not the same as other written claims.

It doesn't take but a second to show how scripture is exactly the same as other written claims. In the absence of facts/proof, they ALL depend on the person reading them to believe them or not believe them.

 

[660griz]

That's what makes claims like this nothing more than just another claim -

It doesn't take but a second to show how scripture is exactly the same as other written claims. In the absence of facts/proof, they ALL depend on the person reading them to believe them or not believe them.

I just think saying that scripture, written word, says that faith comes by hearing..., is just hilarious. Does someone have to read it out loud?

 

[Israel]

I just think saying that scripture, written word, says that faith comes by hearing..., is just hilarious. Does someone have to read it out loud?

Hearing can come at any time, in reading, in laughing at the preacher, in the most stubborn resistance, or even in seeking to be found among the most piously obedient...but until heard, it isn't.

Pretense of hearing is no less common than the pretense of not.

But when one hears who is not of any pretense...something happens.

Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

 

[660griz]

Hearing can come at any time, in reading, in laughing at the preacher, in the most stubborn resistance, or even in seeking to be found among the most piously obedient...but until heard, it isn't.

Pretense of hearing is no less common than the pretense of not.

But when one hears who is not of any pretense...something happens.

Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Well, the dead can't hear so, there's that.

 

[Israel]

Well, the dead can't hear so, there's that.

Yes! That is it.

The hearing must be supplied.

Seem useless to you? I know. The "what do I have to (what do I get to, what am I able to) do to make a certain thing happen" (that another says is happening) is very confounding here.

There are a million natural examples...but even then, nothing will suffice. Like the keys you look for...that have been in plain sight...seemingly unseen...until you see them. All the things of "how did I miss that"? Or the "Why didn't I know that was not only able to happen, but probably would right after I said 'hold my beer and watch this'...and could you ring for the nurse please, I have to pee"

Because in all those things there eventually is a result that can be accounted for to some extent...something that even if not seen, that "when seen" makes sense. The keys weren't hiding or 'not there'...and alcohol in itself is not able to suspend the laws of physics. But yes, this is different. It is a place of total dependence...that does not change. In fact...it is what produces in all things the conviction of dependence to a level which, apart from grace, is unsustainable in consciousness. Unbearable.

Brother, this is as hard for me as it is for you, but also, as easy for me, as it is for you...

I'm with you in the confounding. I'm with you in understanding why a thing like me...appears so useless and...confusing. I got nothing to give you except all that seems worthless, silly, absurd to you...and I know it. Who, like Hitchens...just doesn't bristle at the "infinitely increasing" and seemingly absurd tautology? "Because God"? Is that the answer? The best answer I or any of "us" has?

The complete satisfaction it supplies to me is the "easy"...( and believe it or not it is not the seeming rebuff by you that is the hard...) it is the working of a desire that I have been persuaded is not my own...and how that the thing described as "total dependence" is somehow entwined together with you...that my need to hear more can never be divorced from some consciousness of you.

Look the easiest answer is also the most useless. This question runs so deep in all of us...even after to some satisfaction of "Is there God?" in the believer...he is still left with what is no less a pressing..."then what is "He" like?" So, to say "there's no easy answer" because the question is so fundamentally profound and deep in all currents of being...well like I said...it seems as useless. But there is something I have had to learn...and continue in to whatever measure...that has all this hardness and easiness so abundantly clear in it. I am useless to try and "bend the truth", I am useless against it...for if it is subject to me...in any way (even if I may want so much to "make it perform" to any justification of my proposals) I cannot escape the knowing that "then it is not truth"...but my own conjurings.

I am your brother in dust. I am your brother in a skin lined bag of chemicals/compounds/elements completely subject to not only what goes on within that bag...but the everything that goes on without that bag. Everything. What happens in, and what can happen "to" I am made subject to. Seeing this...is not quite the same as understanding this. And I may just be beginning to.

It's far more than "OK" that you are happening to me. It's a necessity. Even a provision...for me. Even if in all I must only appears the "useless" to you, that is even and especially a necessity (and provision) for me. Can I get you to see this? Or even believe me? I can only laugh before I enter that frustration. Because...I know I didn't even "get me" to see this! A hearing had to be supplied...to even begin to teach me hearing always needs supply.



We might agree to certain things. I am oxygen dependent...are you? I am water dependent...are you? But here is where we may, but must we (?) part ways, "I am all dependent"...all of dependence.
I cannot see my keys till I do. I cannot stop doing (or trying) stupid tricks, or think I can "get away with them"...till I do. I am totally reliant on a consciousness not my own. Even proved to me...when I may even think...I am not! Do you think I have not told the everything of consciousness..."I got this...hold my beer and watch".


I thank God for you Griz...because you "get it"

Well, the dead can't hear so, there's that.

Yes!

Even if, or that I appear totally useless (of no help at all) to you in these matters, I cannot discount your necessity to me. It's perfect. I am able to hear the truth from a consciousness not my own. Speaking through you.

Well, the dead can't hear so, there's that.

And even said in a humorous way so it wouldn't be "lost on me".

To the measure I do not receive my own total dependence being displayed...is the precise measure to which I will experience frustration. I don't like frustration, and the other is the truth. It's good to have choice removed from a thing that cannot bear its own.

 

[bullethead]

Yes! That is it.

The hearing must be supplied.

Seem useless to you? I know. The "what do I have to (what do I get to, what am I able to) do to make a certain thing happen" (that another says is happening) is very confounding here.

There are a million natural examples...but even then, nothing will suffice. Like the keys you look for...that have been in plain sight...seemingly unseen...until you see them. All the things of "how did I miss that"? Or the "Why didn't I know that was not only able to happen, but probably would right after I said 'hold my beer and watch this'...and could you ring for the nurse please, I have to pee"

Because in all those things there eventually is a result that can be accounted for to some extent...something that even if not seen, that "when seen" makes sense. The keys weren't hiding or 'not there'...and alcohol in itself is not able to suspend the laws of physics. But yes, this is different. It is a place of total dependence...that does not change. In fact...it is what produces in all things the conviction of dependence to a level which, apart from grace, is unsustainable in consciousness. Unbearable.

Brother, this is as hard for me as it is for you, but also, as easy for me, as it is for you...

I'm with you in the confounding. I'm with you in understanding why a thing like me...appears so useless and...confusing. I got nothing to give you except all that seems worthless, silly, absurd to you...and I know it. Who, like Hitchens...just doesn't bristle at the "infinitely increasing" and seemingly absurd tautology? "Because God"? Is that the answer? The best answer I or any of "us" has?

The complete satisfaction it supplies to me is the "easy"...( and believe it or not it is not the seeming rebuff by you that is the hard...) it is the working of a desire that I have been persuaded is not my own...and how that the thing described as "total dependence" is somehow entwined together with you...that my need to hear more can never be divorced from some consciousness of you.

Look the easiest answer is also the most useless. This question runs so deep in all of us...even after to some satisfaction of "Is there God?" in the believer...he is still left with what is no less a pressing..."then what is "He" like?" So, to say "there's no easy answer" because the question is so fundamentally profound and deep in all currents of being...well like I said...it seems as useless. But there is something I have had to learn...and continue in to whatever measure...that has all this hardness and easiness so abundantly clear in it. I am useless to try and "bend the truth", I am useless against it...for if it is subject to me...in any way (even if I may want so much to "make it perform" to any justification of my proposals) I cannot escape the knowing that "then it is not truth"...but my own conjurings.

I am your brother in dust. I am your brother in a skin lined bag of chemicals/compounds/elements completely subject to not only what goes on within that bag...but the everything that goes on without that bag. Everything. What happens in, and what can happen "to" I am made subject to. Seeing this...is not quite the same as understanding this. And I may just be beginning to.

It's far more than "OK" that you are happening to me. It's a necessity. Even a provision...for me. Even if in all I must only appears the "useless" to you, that is even and especially a necessity (and provision) for me. Can I get you to see this? Or even believe me? I can only laugh before I enter that frustration. Because...I know I didn't even "get me" to see this! A hearing had to be supplied...to even begin to teach me hearing always needs supply.



We might agree to certain things. I am oxygen dependent...are you? I am water dependent...are you? But here is where we may, but must we (?) part ways, "I am all dependent"...all of dependence.
I cannot see my keys till I do. I cannot stop doing (or trying) stupid tricks, or think I can "get away with them"...till I do. I am totally reliant on a consciousness not my own. Even proved to me...when I may even think...I am not! Do you think I have not told the everything of consciousness..."I got this...hold my beer and watch".


I thank God for you Griz...because you "get it"



Yes!

Even if, or that I appear totally useless (of no help at all) to you in these matters, I cannot discount your necessity to me. It's perfect. I am able to hear the truth from a consciousness not my own. Speaking through you.

Well, the dead can't hear so, there's that.

And even said in a humorous way so it wouldn't be "lost on me".

To the measure I do not receive my own total dependence being displayed...is the precise measure to which I will experience frustration. I don't like frustration, and the other is the truth. It's good to have choice removed from a thing that cannot bear its own.

None of those things are unique to Christians. Believers in many religions claim to "hear".

 

[Israel]

None of those things are unique to Christians. Believers in many religions claim to "hear".

I wasn't at all speaking of what is unique to Christians, but what is common to all men. There is no making one's self hear anymore than anyone can make themselves, or another, see.

Griz appears to understand "the dead can't hear".
So, there's that.

 

[bullethead]

I wasn't at all speaking of what is unique to Christians, but what is common to all men. There is no making one's self hear anymore than anyone can make themselves, or another, see.

Griz appears to understand "the dead can't hear".
So, there's that.

What you say implies that to hear something else must be making noise.
I am pointing out that the religiously "alive", all claim to have something making noise, and hear equally as well. The noise is not exclusive to whatever brand of religious headphones the individuals think are the best.

 

[Israel]

What you say implies that to hear something else must be making noise.
I am pointing out that the religiously "alive", all claim to have something making noise, and hear equally as well. The noise is not exclusive to whatever brand of religious headphones the individuals think are the best.

Yes, the religious hear things.

 

[bullethead]

We know that.

Yes, the religious hear things.

And why I constantly ask that if people in all religions hear things then who or what is making the noise?
For example The God of Abraham tells Christians and Muslims and Jews different things. Why if it actually is a god?
And people in other religions hear things from their gods, does that make their gods as legitimate?

Or is it possible that people think they hear what they want from things they believe in and all are either as true or as false?

Can a believer admit that there are possibly other gods or possibly no gods?

 

[Israel]

http://forum.gon.com/threads/are-gluttons-real-christians.943545/page-24#post-11791541

and here:

• Israel
• Post #934
• Dec 24, 2018
• Forum: Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics

and here:

• Israel
• Post #644
• Sep 17, 2018
• Forum: Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics

and here:

• Israel
• Post #224
• Jun 24, 2018
• Forum: Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics

I have never denied there are other entities which speak. Jesus quickly identified what was speaking through Peter as was tempting him in the wilderness.


For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[bullethead]

http://forum.gon.com/threads/are-gluttons-real-christians.943545/page-24#post-11791541

and here:

• Israel
• Post #934
• Dec 24, 2018
• Forum: Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics

and here:

• Israel
• Post #644
• Sep 17, 2018
• Forum: Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics

and here:

• Israel
• Post #224
• Jun 24, 2018
• Forum: Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics

I have never denied there are other entities which speak. Jesus quickly identified what was speaking through Peter as was tempting him in the wilderness.


For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I do appreciate your answer about the other gods and you providing proof to go along with it. Kudos.

To your last two paragraphs,
Yeah, all these different religious people as members of all these different religions and all worshipping different gods and they all BE thinkin they were magically born into the Be one Be right Be god and one Be right Be religion.
Nothing unique, nothing different.

 

[Israel]

I do appreciate your answer about the other gods and you providing proof to go along with it. Kudos.

To your last two paragraphs,
Yeah, all these different religious people as members of all these different religions and all worshipping different gods and they all BE thinkin they were magically born into the Be one Be right Be god and one Be right Be religion.
Nothing unique, nothing different.

Seems to me (if I read you right) you're persuaded every bit of sameness doesn't lessen your conviction "sumthin's gotta be different and unique" to be true.

How bout the God you are convinced is unknowable not only is making Himself known to you...but is doing it precisely because He wants to? Would that be "off the charts" enough to you...the very one who persuades you to not "settle" for what looks so much the same...is the very bone you got in yer mouth like a bulldog?

 

[bullethead]

Seems to me (if I read you right) you're persuaded every bit of sameness doesn't lessen your conviction "sumthin's gotta be different and unique" to be true.

Being different or unique does not immediately make something true. Being different or unique allows something to stand out from the rest. Those qualities draw attention to things which are not common. Those unique qualities can add to something being more legitimate.
For instance, if it was factual that every Christian who has ever prayed to Jesus was cured of their life threatening disease, that would be unique and something that would be add a factual legitimacy to the Christian god being possible.

When you hear what you think is the one and only true god talking to you(although even you cannot tell us what it sounds like) you (and others) act as if that is something special. While I do think that you think it is special, I just point out that yeah you and another couple other billion people hear the same things from the same and other gods.

How bout the God you are convinced is unknowable not only is making Himself known to you...but is doing it precisely because He wants to? Would that be "off the charts" enough to you...the very one who persuades you to not "settle" for what looks so much the same...is the very bone you got in yer mouth like a bulldog?

Isreal, How about "god" doing anything that does not require one of his followers to HAVE to assert the results are because of a god?
Why does your god need you to inform me that he is making himself known to me and the only (for the lack of a better term) "evidence" of him supposedly making himself known to me is YOU claiming it is happening?

 

[Israel]

Great! Arguing for a God that doesn't need anything from man or what man might do. Especially one like me! (More relief for me!)

God wants the man...just because...he wants the man.

 

[bullethead]

Great! Arguing for a God that doesn't need anything from man or what man might do. Especially one like me! (More relief for me!)

God wants the man...just because...he wants the man.

No matter if I or you argue for or against a god or any gods, they are still No Shows.
I do realize that there is no way for you to honestly answer my questions and or provide anything to back it up. It is the corner that your belief paints you in.

God wants, gods thinks, god says, god makes....all the same things you do...

 

[Israel]

No matter if I or you argue for or against a god or any gods, they are still No Shows.
I do realize that there is no way for you to honestly answer my questions and or provide anything to back it up. It is the corner that your belief paints you in.

God wants, gods thinks, god says, god makes....all the same things you do...

This seems, more often than not, your go to position. Your maintenance of being the honest broker "always" while others either do not, or cannot, move in that realm of virtue in which you do. This is such a common thing as to be found in all men. To themselves, each is the right, or righteous one...while at the very best all others may be viewed as suspect. This may be impossible to see of any man in himself, but once it is, it is far from difficult to perceive in its workings. "All of a man's ways are right in his own eyes". It is a fundamental state of being for man left "to himself".

In the extreme, or that place to which only truth can suffer to be taken, that man is alone. At the very best his allowance to any fellowship will be in the exception of (and acceptation) of those liars he loves. He will make for himself of those "kindreds", drawing them to himself, not in truth, but in exception for their being. The man cannot imagine anyone or anything that can so put what he believes his love of allowance for them, to any place of examination where his deepest devotion is shown all born of lie. But God is of all things...not ignorant. God knows of what union is, and what it is not.

And so, without shame or fear of contradiction Jesus declared

If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

His own is key word(s). For this is all to which the man retreats in defense against the knowing of God. His own. His own sense of being right, his own relationships, his own...extensions. They have the appearance of buttress to him, of sufficiency. For Jesus knows the appearance of God to every man lost in such ignorance is as enemy. Luke 14:31

And man must resort to all and anything at hand for preservation. But ignorant man does not know how he puts what is very closest and dearest "to him" then...on the front lines. His boast of their strength to sustain, whether it be intelligence, cleverness, relationships, material stuff...the all he never could believe is now "up for grabs"...is precisely that...unless he sees and sues for terms of peace.

How much I may be able to bear of being called liar, less than honest, "cornered" is always for the testing. The probing. How deep and sure , and of what is my resource, needs disclosing to me as much as to any man. I too am no less ignorant in these matters. How easily a thing may be said, proposed, made defense for with no more of source than last good meal. A full belly sometimes...a bit of meat, a piece of pie...may be all that is speaking. Take that away...and the man may come closer to speaking the truth of himself. I am dependent. In all. What speaks from necessity, of necessity...is the all that is necessary.

Man must be saved. Not from what he may think is his lack of evidence, his lack (or anyone else's inability to provide) of surety, but from the innermost conviction that he alone is able to present right response in truth, to truth. Jesus Christ is that, and that One whom understood and understands such testing of all (His) word and being is victoriously accomplished only in and by that true union. His total...dependence. Jesus is true...before His resurrection...but no less testified to it, by it. That only is, if he need be seen in matter of time by allowance.

But He is the resurrection, and the life. You are looking for events, perhaps thinking yourself already rich enough in relationship(s)...in knowledge and understanding...when it is a person to be sought...to keep you from the he11 of an ignorantly, but diligently sought, isolation. Have a care as to what you cling to. If it be your own "rightness" in whatever form it may be presented, some mastery of cleverness, some naive belief you are presenting yourself as honest (to a fault) broker...may such naivete be treated with kindness.

You may casually accuse one such as Paul of some craven motive to "start a new religion". You seem to have some confidence in the seeing of that, the knowing of that...by whatever persuasion you have such confidence to speak. And I would be a fool to believe Paul is endorsed by any defense of mine...of him. But as Jesus, and as Paul (and all the faithful who have gone on in Christ) a man may learn to not speak ill of those whose nature and character they bear no witness.

Me, I am a liar. Except another make me, otherwise.

 

[bullethead]

This seems, more often than not, your go to position. Your maintenance of being the honest broker "always" while others either do not, or cannot, move in that realm of virtue in which you do. This is such a common thing as to be found in all men. To themselves, each is the right, or righteous one...while at the very best all others may be viewed as suspect. This may be impossible to see of any man in himself, but once it is, it is far from difficult to perceive in its workings. "All of a man's ways are right in his own eyes". It is a fundamental state of being for man left "to himself".

In the extreme, or that place to which only truth can suffer to be taken, that man is alone. At the very best his allowance to any fellowship will be in the exception of (and acceptation) of those liars he loves. He will make for himself of those "kindreds", drawing them to himself, not in truth, but in exception for their being. The man cannot imagine anyone or anything that can so put what he believes his love of allowance for them, to any place of examination where his deepest devotion is shown all born of lie. But God is of all things...not ignorant. God knows of what union is, and what it is not.

And so, without shame or fear of contradiction Jesus declared

If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

His own is key word(s). For this is all to which the man retreats in defense against the knowing of God. His own. His own sense of being right, his own relationships, his own...extensions. They have the appearance of buttress to him, of sufficiency. For Jesus knows the appearance of God to every man lost in such ignorance is as enemy. Luke 14:31

And man must resort to all and anything at hand for preservation. But ignorant man does not know how he puts what is very closest and dearest "to him" then...on the front lines. His boast of their strength to sustain, whether it be intelligence, cleverness, relationships, material stuff...the all he never could believe is now "up for grabs"...is precisely that...unless he sees and sues for terms of peace.

How much I may be able to bear of being called liar, less than honest, "cornered" is always for the testing. The probing. How deep and sure , and of what is my resource, needs disclosing to me as much as to any man. I too am no less ignorant in these matters. How easily a thing may be said, proposed, made defense for with no more of source than last good meal. A full belly sometimes...a bit of meat, a piece of pie...may be all that is speaking. Take that away...and the man may come closer to speaking the truth of himself. I am dependent. In all. What speaks from necessity, of necessity...is the all that is necessary.

Man must be saved. Not from what he may think is his lack of evidence, his lack (or anyone else's inability to provide) of surety, but from the innermost conviction that he alone is able to present right response in truth, to truth. Jesus Christ is that, and that One whom understood and understands such testing of all (His) word and being is victoriously accomplished only in and by that true union. His total...dependence. Jesus is true...before His resurrection...but no less testified to it, by it. That only is, if he need be seen in matter of time by allowance.

But He is the resurrection, and the life. You are looking for events, perhaps thinking yourself already rich enough in relationship(s)...in knowledge and understanding...when it is a person to be sought...to keep you from the he11 of an ignorantly, but diligently sought, isolation. Have a care as to what you cling to. If it be your own "rightness" in whatever form it may be presented, some mastery of cleverness, some naive belief you are presenting yourself as honest (to a fault) broker...may such naivete be treated with kindness.

You may casually accuse one such as Paul of some craven motive to "start a new religion". You seem to have some confidence in the seeing of that, the knowing of that...by whatever persuasion you have such confidence to speak. And I would be a fool to believe Paul is endorsed by any defense of mine...of him. But as Jesus, and as Paul (and all the faithful who have gone on in Christ) a man may learn to not speak ill of those whose nature and character they bear no witness.

Me, I am a liar. Except another make me, otherwise.

Evidence makes a person honest.