Scripture vs the written Gospel?

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
Boy, those guys doin' all that mendin' and blendin' sure were stupid. They left all there for anybody to see. How blessed we are that we got so much smarter in the last 200 yrs. God must have done it all for His most favored people—us.
 

Israel

BANNED
My mind often goes to this when matters of inerrancy and inspiration are being put in the docket.

Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be like him.

Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own eyes.


I can't see anything of resolution solely in this instruction until one is moved to seek with sincere heart "what then, Lord, am I to do?" Or equally trained by the folly of assuming one knows...till the same prayer is unearthed.

I am persuaded the whole of scripture is to bring us to Whom of which it all testifies for instruction, discipline, and submission to His spirit. And answer.

Asking, seeking, knocking is not a frivolous pass time. If we didn't need it, it would not have been given as instruction.

Ignorance submitted to Christ becomes remarkable as some have noted.

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ordinary men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I don't intend to back anyone into a corner by pushing for them to try to explain that which I know they can not. However.... Since I was specific, it calls for a specific response. Better to not respond at all..... than to respond with no substance. So far, stupid... and fool. LOL, that's exactly what I expected. I did not expect anyone to address the points I made.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I get no joy from pointing these out, nor feel accomplished to have proven my view. I just feel strongly that believers need to address these issues now, rather than later. .
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Boy, those guys doin' all that mendin' and blendin' sure were stupid. They left all there for anybody to see. How blessed we are that we got so much smarter in the last 200 yrs. God must have done it all for His most favored people—us.

We did figure out grace over works and election over free will. I think in due time we may be able to see much more than "those guys" back then. Each generation learns a little bit more about the truth and the light. (Luther)

As people run to and fro, knowledge will increase.
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
We did figure out grace over works and election over free will. I think in due time we may be able to see much more than "those guys" back then. Each generation learns a little bit more about the truth and the light. (Luther)

As people run to and fro, knowledge will increase.
While the most important thing to remember is that God had it "figured out" all along, I think that what you are referencing as progress in man's understanding is the result of the emphasis being placed in a particular area of study at a particular time. During the early church period most emphasis was placed on God, His nature, attributes, and relationship to creation. Those questions are foundational to the church, just as they are to Art and hummer. Clarity, or confusion, there determines the understanding of all other, frankly less important, issues including justification, sanctification, salvation, and glorification. Has there been progress? I'm reluctant to voice an opinion; but I am convinced that we have been blessed by God with many wise and faithful men to lead us on His path; and equally convinced that He has provided for us many contrasting examples in those that would claim a greater privilege at God's hand as a consequence of the passage of time. To the list of Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free, rich or poor, can be added ancient or modern, because in every rendition of the concept there exists the opportunity for egocentric man to claim greater favor before God for his individual or class identity.

Here are a couple of reads for you relating to grace and faith in the early church Fathers.

https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/did-the-early-church-teach-faith-alone/
http://www.riemerroukema.nl/downloads/RiemerRoukema-0143.pdf
 
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Artfuldodger

Senior Member
While the most important thing to remember is that God had it "figured out" all along, I think that what you are referencing as progress in man's understanding is the result of the emphasis being placed in a particular area of study at a particular time. During the early church period most emphasis was placed on God, His nature, attributes, and relationship to creation. Those questions are foundational to the church, just as they are to Art and hummer. Clarity, or confusion, there determines the understanding of all other, frankly less important, issues including justification, sanctification, salvation, and glorification. Has there been progress? I'm reluctant to voice an opinion; but I am convinced that we have been blessed by God with many wise and faithful men to lead us on His path; and equally convinced that He has provided for us many contrasting examples in those that would claim a greater privilege at God's hand as a consequence of the passage of time. To the list of Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free, rich or poor, can be added ancient or modern, because in every rendition of the concept there exists the opportunity for egocentric man to claim greater favor before God for his individual or class identity.

Here are a couple of reads for you relating to grace and faith in the early church Fathers.

https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/did-the-early-church-teach-faith-alone/
http://www.riemerroukema.nl/downloads/RiemerRoukema-0143.pdf

Thanks, I'll check out the links later. You mention in the early Church most of the emphasis was on God. Is this why we don't see as much about the Holy Spirit?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Are you bitheist, tritheist, or tetratheist?

The thing is I'm not really sure how I would describe the unity the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I can see the points Trinitarians see. I can see the points Oneness believers see. To me they are just attempts to explain the unity, just not very good attempts.

Perhaps bitheist(dualism) since the Son was always a Son and the Father has always been the Father. Maybe there is a God and a god. Maybe Jesus only pre-existed in Word. I do beleive the Holy Spirit is only God's spirit so that takes the standard Trinity belief out of the picture.
When I see scripture that says "God" I automatically picture the Father. The Father sent the Son, the Father sent his Spirit, etc.
By the power of my Father in Heaven.
That would mean only one God having all the power, my God and your God. My Father and your Father.
If the Father has all the power maybe that takes bitheism out of the equation. The Son did everything through the power of the Father. The Son is and was subordinate. The Father is the head of Christ.

I will admit that my belief doesn't clear up the answers any better than any of the other beliefs in explaining the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Which label am I? I'm not sure. Maybe their isn't only one I fall under. I guess I'll just say Unity. I in my Father and my Father in me.
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
I just had the program throw away a whole post I had prepared. It will be shorter this time.
The thing is I'm not really sure how I would describe the unity the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Don't worry about being able to describe the relationship. Those who claim to have succeeded are the ones to worry about.

As an exercise, forget all the rest of the stuff and ask youself "why didn't I say 'I'm not really sure how I would describe the diversity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?'"

minimum 10 min. pause

I can see the points Trinitarians see.
Have you seen identical points made that were not quoting the same source?

I can see the points Oneness believers see.
I still don't know just what that is, nonetheless, my Trinitarian comment still applies here as well.

To me they are just attempts to explain the unity, just not very good attempts.

Like the first question, why not "attempts to explain the diversity,"

If, in sentence one and four, "unity" is preferred, tritheism is nearly unavoidable. Considering the clarity of scripture on the uniqueness of God (i.e. Deu, 6:4,5; etc.) that is a danger that I think must be avoided above all else. If "diversity" is preferred the dangers are Arianism and Sabellianism. If the question is approached with the inviolability of God's singularity foremost, and the clear implication of the divinity of the Son and Spirit, to be accommodated, those duel dangers will be avoided as well. The result will be that, when someone points to an emphasis on God and who He is, the Son and the Spirit will not be perceived as having been left by the wayside.

For some of my thinking see #48 in the Atheism has a Suicide Problem thread.
 

Israel

BANNED
All that we may suffer under, God does not. God is without contradiction in Himself. And of Himself. And our God is One.

One man, in himself, has competing thoughts, competing affections, competing voices clamoring for attention. (unless I am completely unlike any other man, which is a vanity that has never had any profitable fruit when resorted to as conclusion)

Man is...quite divided in himself, if left to himself.

This leads to the burden of choices in desperate hope of successful outcome by making the "right" one. But man may learn, (by being shown) as ill equipped as he is to "control" for outcomes, he is equally ill equipped to know what, and how, right, or true, success appears.

No matter the cleverness nor resourcefulness of man, (nor any man in particular for that matter), what he earns for all his machinations (even if he has convinced himself he has controlled well enough to "success") that success will always and eventually prove itself to be of less satisfaction, than cost of effort and will expended in its procurement.

God sees the awful fix man is in...of frustration. And is merciful...so He gives Himself fully to man in Jesus Christ. (I am not being condescending, I am not the only man to have ever heard the gospel) But, I may be at least of such form of man that knows he has needed it far beyond even his own knowing of need.

Jesus tells us "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

But we also know in Christ there is a gaining (and eventually through His patient participation in us) come to understand this gain is far in excess of even having "the whole of the world".

The path of the disciple is full of dissuasions and persuasions. On our "end" (so to speak) it may appear much trial and error. God's grace is sufficient. (Consider the patience of God as salvation a wise brother wrote)
Blind alleys...looking promising are eventually shown plainly as they are. Repentance returns us.

And here is a completely non-fruitless hope in exercise...that we may inquire of the Lord "what was it here, in this place to which I am returned by your gift of repentance, that deceived into that path of fruitlessness?" What remains "in me" or "of me" that the adversary found just basis in, to lead me into that blindness from which I was compelled to appeal for relief?" "What 'hook' remains to be exposed?"

God is faithful to show.

"The wisdom from above being easily entreated"

We may learn about the "burden" of choice...and choices. And painful outcomes.

God, in His infinite wisdom gives us no choice as to Whom our helper is.
God gives us no choice as to Whom Messiah (His Christ) is.
And Messiah helps us always. And in all ways.

He has removed the shame of being...man. Of being subject. Of knowing only division in our own souls, and falling to shame when we believe we have been so mutton-headed and wrong...and just as surely, delivers us from pride we may have even fallen to in believing "see, I made the right choice!"

Pride and shame are of the same coin, and they are not the "currency" of the Kingdom. We simply cannot handle either. Nor made to. Love only, which is life only (in which there is no choice) are made ours through Christ. And learning to walk in what is current (of currency) in the Kingdom is all we have been made for. Learning...what serves life (Who), what (Who) is always in service of love.

God forbid we seek choices in that which God's provision to us, has manifestly removed them.
Jesus, our friend, Lord and Master tells us a thing to relieve such burdens we have known.

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

This reduction to singleness of eye that we are enduring is to an end too glorious to expound, and a safety from so many of griefs that would dash our souls, otherwise, to bits. (Even greater fragmentation than previously known). Falling upon the rock is of far greater experience (even if it be in seemingly endless tears) than having the rock fall upon us.

A crushing to powder leaves the soul at whim of every and any breeze. I don't doubt some of us have had a taste of being broken beyond what we thought reparable. Yet...we are here. Not forsaken. "I will not leave you as orphans...I will come to you"

We are not here to explain the relationship...we are here, in it, and to be in it...and know it. And the knowing of it will make that relationship plain to all whom our God is calling, and has called.

Something will flow, undeniable. And inexplicable. Into the place where men still believe they choose...to believe...what is best for them.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
If we take all the books of the Bible, we have diversity. If we assemble them together, we have unity. I can see diversity in God. A burning bush, his angel, His Son, His spirit, nature, creation, science, the birth of a baby, etc.
When I think of his power is see unity. I don't think I can narrow God down to just two or three of anything.

Must I choose one or the other to describe God? I'll have to think on that a bit more.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
I have thought about this long and hard and I believe that you are not looking for reasonable explanations, but rather looking to defend your belief that all scripture is not God breathed and inspired by God. So I won't bother to give any reasonable explanation and you can continue in your belief. The fact of the matter is all of scripture both Old and New point to the One Lord Jesus Christ. The Old points forward to Him and the New points back to Him. He is the focal point in all of History and the Only One in revelation who is worthy to even open the book. It is also in Him the only way to the Father. So I will continue to be blessed by God's revealed will for us clearly written for us in His Word, which He also pointed to and quoted from while here on earth when He tabernacled with us.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I have thought about this long and hard and I believe that you are not looking for reasonable explanations, but rather looking to defend your belief that all scripture is not God breathed and inspired by God. So I won't bother to give any reasonable explanation and you can continue in your belief. The fact of the matter is all of scripture both Old and New point to the One Lord Jesus Christ. The Old points forward to Him and the New points back to Him. He is the focal point in all of History and the Only One in revelation who is worthy to even open the book. It is also in Him the only way to the Father. So I will continue to be blessed by God's revealed will for us clearly written for us in His Word, which He also pointed to and quoted from while here on earth when He tabernacled with us.
This is my 4th response, the first three I erased. I will be a gentleman and say "go in peace"
 
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