Where I fish is below the Lake Blackshear dam down to Lake Seminole. The spot I caught was a few miles south of the HWY 32 bridge on the Flint, at the foot of Abram`s Shoals.
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Shoal bass
- Thread starter jbpriest
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Where I fish is below the Lake Blackshear dam down to Lake Seminole. The spot I caught was a few miles south of the HWY 32 bridge on the Flint, at the foot of Abram`s Shoals.
Browniez
Senior Member
We have a Tri state water management plan where a snail darter is an important piece of the Puzzle. It would be nice to see Shoalies get a bit more respect from the powers that be.
ShoalBandit
Senior Member
(with) tongue in cheek
phrase of tongue
without really meaning what one is saying or writing.
There is nothing tongue in cheek about any of this? And there is no argument because the same observations I've made can be and have been confirmed by electrofishing surveys and other anglers. While rainbow and brown trout are not native the main problem with Buford Dam is habitat loss—not the trout. Habitat loss has been and continues to be one of, if not the biggest threats to Shoal Bass and other regionally endemic black bass. But in the last 30+ years the illegal transfer and introduction of nonnative species (of black bass) has done more damage to the remaining fragmented populations. That's what the post(s) I made are about. Introgressive hybridization between native and illegally introduced (nonnative) species of black bass.
Clearly I do not understand the point you're trying to make here because it sounds like the only part of a river that matters (to you) is the impounded section accessible to power boats? What you and many others don't seem to understand is that illegally introduced (nonnative) black bass do not simply stay in the lakes where they're released. They eventually colonize any and all streams flowing into the lake unless some kind of barrier (waterfall, dam, etc...) stops them. Not only that but they also colonize the river/water body below the lake. During high water periods fish pass over dams through spillway gates all the time. Fish also pass through dams when water is released during a process called turbine passage.
There really are very few natural lakes above the Fall Line until you get north of the Ohio River but I do not see how that has anything to do with the illegal introduction of nonnative black bass and/or introgressive hybridization with native species like Shoal Bass? I will say the GA state record Shoal Bass weighed 8-3 and was caught from the free-flowing Flint River while nonnative species (Alabama Bass, Spotted Bass and Smallmouth) struggle to reach weights half that size in the same drainage. Now which one do you think people would rather catch?
The constant is that humans (in the last 200 years) are changing everything—often not for the better. That is the bottom line and the fact we're losing so many native species like the Shoal Bass (and others) that have been around for millions of years should serve as a warning to us all.
fish hawk
Bass Master
I
We catch questionable bass fairly often.Heres a couple, see what y'all think.
We catch questionable bass fairly often.Heres a couple, see what y'all think.
ShoalBandit
Senior Member
Those are Choctaw Bass Micropterus haiaka and they were described as a new species in 2013. Choctaw Bass are native to drainages between the Mobile Basin and the Apalachicola Basin.
ShoalBandit
Senior Member
The second fish IMO is definitely a hybrid just because some of the midlateral blotches have an intermediate shape and merge. I suspect the third and fourth individuals are also hybrids because the midlateral blotches appear more uniform (in size/shape) and are evenly spaced—but again that's just my opinion. Unfortunately nonnative species have been backcrossing for several decades now so many hybrids outwardly resemble Shoal Bass. Even Georgia DNR biologists can't tell anymore. They collect fish and field ID them as Shoal Bass all the time only to have them genotyped as hybrids.
Bananaslug22
Senior Member
So heres a hypothetical.... you catch a world record 9# shoalie and they send it off to verify and it comes back a hybrid mix of some sort or percentage.... Its a record or not? They gonna ding you on not catching a genetically pure shoalie?
If they do reject it, I cant say I would disagree with that call.... maybe its not genetically possible for a hybrid mix to get that big. Just thinking out loud.
If they do reject it, I cant say I would disagree with that call.... maybe its not genetically possible for a hybrid mix to get that big. Just thinking out loud.
ShoalBandit
Senior Member
That's a good question I'm not sure anybody can answer—here's why. It depends on the organization but as far as I know the IGFA does not currently use genetics to confirm species ID. They use 'qualified' biologists to confirm species ID by looking at the fish or pictures of it. Most 'qualified' biologists for Shoal Bass work for Alabama DCNR or Georgia DNR. A 9lb Shoal Bass would qualify as a record in both states. Most state agencies including ALDCNR and GADNR now use genetics to confirm species ID so it would absolutely be rejected as a state record. Now will the state biologists use this info when they look at the fish or pictures of it for the IGFA? Will the IGFA be influenced by the states' decision to reject the fish as a record? IDK
I do know the number of real Shoal Bass in this world gets smaller every year so the odds of breaking (or even matching) the state record (much less the world record) are extremely remote.
BTW some hybrids benefit from heterosis or 'hybrid vigor' which allows them to grow faster and obtain larger sizes than parent species.
I do know the number of real Shoal Bass in this world gets smaller every year so the odds of breaking (or even matching) the state record (much less the world record) are extremely remote.
BTW some hybrids benefit from heterosis or 'hybrid vigor' which allows them to grow faster and obtain larger sizes than parent species.
Bananaslug22
Senior Member
From the IGFA website, their info paragraph on the Shoal Bass. I don't see a 'REDEYE' bass selection available in the dropdown box in terms of the 'World Record'. Does this mean that IGFA is just lumping Shoalies and Redeyes together? I thought they were a different species but I could be wrong. I underlined the section I'm referencing. They still list Carl Davis' 1995 fish as the World Record but as discussed in another thread several months ago, the State of Florida does not consider Carl Davis fish a state record(maybe due to where it was weighed in during a tournament?).
CENTRARCHIDAE FAMILY;
The shoal bass occurs in the Apalachicola, Chattahoochee and Flint river drainages of Alabama, Florida and Georgia. It has been introduced and is now established in the Altamaha River drainages in central Georgia. It inhabits shoal areas of rivers and large creeks throughout its range.
Over the past 40 years, the shoal bass has been referred to as the Redeye Bass, M. coosae, as an undescribed subspecies or variety of the Redeye Bass, or as an undescribed species. In a paper written by James D. Williams and George H. Burgess, A New Species of Bass, Micropterus cataractae, the confusion was finally clarified. After examining the records for the “Redeye Bass” at IGFA, it was determined that all of the existing records are Shoal Bass, Micropterus cataractae. All of the Redeye Bass records have been transferred to the new designation of Shoal Bass.
The Shoal Bass coloration is olive green to dark olive to almost black, a dusky to black blotch is present on the posterior portion of the opercle and another one right before the tail. Three diagonal dark lines are present laterally on the head. The iris is typically bright red.
Although the Shoal Bass has been most often confused with the Redeye Bass, it is most similar to the Spotted Bass, M. punctulatus. It differs from the Spotted Bass by the absence of teeth on its tongue. The Shoal Bass also has more lateral lines scales (usually 67-81, not 59 to 70), more rows of scales above (usually 8 to 10, not 6 to 9) and below (usually 15 to 21, not 12 to 15) the lateral line and more caudal peduncle scales than the Spotted Bass. The color pattern of adult Shoal Bass is characterized by the presence of 10 to 15 midlateral and 6 to 8 supralateral dark vertical bars along the sides, these bars, which are also present in juveniles, easily distinguish the Shoal Bass from Spotted Bass. The Redeye Bass and has an oval to rectangular patch of teeth on the tongue, fewer lateral line scales (usually 62-73, not 67-81) and fewer scale rows above (usually 7 to 9, not 8-10) and below (usually 13 to 16, not 15-21) the lateral line.
The American Fisheries Society Endangered Species Committee lists the Shoal Bass as a species of Special Concern. With the continuing loss of habitat fa
CENTRARCHIDAE FAMILY;
The shoal bass occurs in the Apalachicola, Chattahoochee and Flint river drainages of Alabama, Florida and Georgia. It has been introduced and is now established in the Altamaha River drainages in central Georgia. It inhabits shoal areas of rivers and large creeks throughout its range.
Over the past 40 years, the shoal bass has been referred to as the Redeye Bass, M. coosae, as an undescribed subspecies or variety of the Redeye Bass, or as an undescribed species. In a paper written by James D. Williams and George H. Burgess, A New Species of Bass, Micropterus cataractae, the confusion was finally clarified. After examining the records for the “Redeye Bass” at IGFA, it was determined that all of the existing records are Shoal Bass, Micropterus cataractae. All of the Redeye Bass records have been transferred to the new designation of Shoal Bass.
The Shoal Bass coloration is olive green to dark olive to almost black, a dusky to black blotch is present on the posterior portion of the opercle and another one right before the tail. Three diagonal dark lines are present laterally on the head. The iris is typically bright red.
Although the Shoal Bass has been most often confused with the Redeye Bass, it is most similar to the Spotted Bass, M. punctulatus. It differs from the Spotted Bass by the absence of teeth on its tongue. The Shoal Bass also has more lateral lines scales (usually 67-81, not 59 to 70), more rows of scales above (usually 8 to 10, not 6 to 9) and below (usually 15 to 21, not 12 to 15) the lateral line and more caudal peduncle scales than the Spotted Bass. The color pattern of adult Shoal Bass is characterized by the presence of 10 to 15 midlateral and 6 to 8 supralateral dark vertical bars along the sides, these bars, which are also present in juveniles, easily distinguish the Shoal Bass from Spotted Bass. The Redeye Bass and has an oval to rectangular patch of teeth on the tongue, fewer lateral line scales (usually 62-73, not 67-81) and fewer scale rows above (usually 7 to 9, not 8-10) and below (usually 13 to 16, not 15-21) the lateral line.
The American Fisheries Society Endangered Species Committee lists the Shoal Bass as a species of Special Concern. With the continuing loss of habitat fa
ShoalBandit
Senior Member
Yes Shoal Bass and Redeye Bass are different species—the IGFA does not have a category for Redeye Bass and hasn't since the Shoal Bass split in 1999.
BTW the 'redeye bass' was split again into five different species in 2013 so that might have something to with it? You also have two undescribed forms of black bass (Altamaha Bass and Bartram's Bass) that are informally recognized as separate species. Both fish are still technically classified as 'redeye bass' based on the original 1940 description of that species.
As far as the Carl Davis fish goes only the FWC knows. It was caught below Jim Woodruff Dam so maybe there was some concern it might be a Shoal x Spot hybrid? Hybridization with nonnative species is definitely more common below dams just because species have fewer places to avoid each other. Look at the Georgia state record 'Redeye Bass' caught from the Tugaloo arm of Lake Hartwell. Many believe that fish is actually a Bartram's x Alabama hybrid but it was caught before the DNR started using genetics to confirm species ID.
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ShoalBandit
Senior Member
Most upland species of black bass max out around 12 inches and a lot of the ones you catch are 8-11 inches. I don't think too many people who are out to catch and eat fish target them but I could be wrong. I have seen a few people keep Bartram's Bass and Suwannee Bass over the years but again not many. You're also talking about fish that are in most cases restricted to a single drainage in a very small portion of the state. The biggest threat to them is the introduction and spread of nonnative species which are often larger and kept more frequently by people who want to eat fish.
djfyiintheoutdoors
Member
Love me Shoal Bass. Think I might have caught the state record the other week, but didn't have a way to keep it alive to have it weighed so threw it back. Scale that I had tipped right at 8 pounds, but seemed heavier than that (it was a fish gripper that had a scale built in to it) Check it out!
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Pointpuller
Senior Member
Awesome fish and pic!!
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