T/C Contender $?

[GunnSmokeer]

Explain to me how this fits in.

“Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts ..."

The reason is simple.

If you have both a shoulder stock AND a 16" barrel, it's totally believable that you only intend to use both of those things together to turn your pistol into a rifle, and then return it to a pistol by taking BOTH of those things off at the same time.

If you ONLY have a shoulder stock for your pistol, and you don't even OWN any rifle-length barrel for that gun, the only plausible reason for wanting that combination of parts is to be able to quickly assemble yourself a short-barreled-rifle.

 

[Mr Bya Lungshot]

The Thompson center contender was designed originally as a interchangeable pistol first, then later also a interchangeable rifle, then a interchangeable kit. T/C went to court about that “kit” and eventually won. The encore was originally designed and intended as an interchangeable identical frame from the beginning as a pistol and a rifle plus a shotgun and a muzzleloader. Within that time the G2 was also originally designed interchangeable as the pistol and a rifle along with the muzzleloader and shotgun barrels.

My question is simply can a muzzleloader be legally configurable to centerfire pistol or muzzleloader and grip without a buttstock that obviously clearly says “barrel shorter than 16” not allowed when buttstock is installed”.
Is this legal or not?
I think the 2011 letter says it is.
Can you interchange parts from a muzzleloader to pistol legally considering it is all original Thompson center and it is designed from the factory to do just that.

Please read the entire 2011 letter posted in a link earlier in this thread. Any prior letter rulings are succeeded. Meaning whatever you “thought before 2011” is now complexly defined differently in this 2011 official letter.
So when you take a muzzleloader and wish to make it a legal typical pistol as originally designed with pistol grip and all. Is it then a legal pistol by their definition?

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon;
rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts).

Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made.

 

[rosewood]

If you ONLY have a shoulder stock for your pistol, and you don't even OWN any rifle-length barrel for that gun, the only plausible reason for wanting that combination of parts is to be able to quickly assemble yourself a short-barreled-rifle.

It is plausible you had a rifle length barrel and sold it or you plan on buying one in the future. Been there done that.

Rosewood

 

[Mr Bya Lungshot]

The Thompson center contender was designed originally as a interchangeable pistol first, then later also a interchangeable rifle, then a interchangeable kit. T/C went to court about that “kit” and eventually won. The encore was originally designed and intended as an interchangeable identical frame from the beginning as a pistol and a rifle plus a shotgun and a muzzleloader. Within that time the G2 was also originally designed interchangeable as the pistol and a rifle along with the muzzleloader and shotgun barrels.

My question is simply can a muzzleloader be legally configurable to centerfire pistol or muzzleloader and grip without a buttstock that obviously clearly says “barrel shorter than 16” not allowed when buttstock is installed”.
Is this legal or not?
I think the 2011 letter says it is.
Can you interchange parts from a muzzleloader to pistol legally considering it is all original Thompson center and it is designed from the factory to do just that.

Please read the entire 2011 letter posted in a link earlier in this thread. Any prior letter rulings are succeeded. Meaning whatever you “thought before 2011” is now complexly defined differently in this 2011 official letter.
So when you take a muzzleloader and wish to make it a legal typical pistol as originally designed with pistol grip and all. Is it then a legal pistol by their definition?

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon;
rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts).

Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made.

Been waiting a year and nobody has the answer? So I called TCA.
Thompson center arms said any contender and any encore can legally be all three regardless of how it left the factory.
INTERCHANGEABLE PLATFORM They said they can tell you how it left the factory if 1997 and newer but that doesn’t really matter. Change your rifle and muzzleloader to a pistol men! And then back again!!!
Just follow the buttstock rule. Agree now?
@rosewood @GunnSmokeer

 

[GunnSmokeer]

Been waiting a year and nobody has the answer? So I called TCA.
Thompson center arms said any contender and any encore can legally be all three ...Change your rifle and muzzleloader to a pistol men! And then back again!!!
Just follow the buttstock rule. Agree now?
@rosewood @GunnSmokeer

No. You talked to a secretary or customer service representative at a gun manufacturer.

You didn't talk to BATF, nor a prosecutor from the US Attorney's office, nor a federal Defender nor any private -practice attorney with a concentration on criminal defense in federal courts.

And you didn't speak to a lawyer who has litigated federal firearms cases in front of any federal appellate court or the US Supreme Court.

So, I remain unconvinced.

I still say if you have a Contender pistol frame that was sold as a pistol, you cannot own a buttstock that fits the frame *unless* you also own and keep in the same place a 16 inch barrel.

The OP from 2013 had a Contender pistol and a shoulder stock, NO RIFLE LENGTH BARREL, and he thought he was legal because he had never physically attached that stock to that frame. (He just kept them together in close proximity).

I say ATF and the US Attorney's office could use the "constructive possession" doctrine on those facts.

 

[Mr Bya Lungshot]

All true, but she at Thompson Center Arms was on point and knew exactly what I was asking no beating around the bush.
She did say local and state law may be different but federal specific it was legal to switch from original rifle to pistol for contenders and encores, ALL OF THEM.
Every single frame ever produced.

The Op was obviously breaking the federal law no doubt without also owning the 16”plus barrel and keeping in close proximity of the buttstock.

My concern is simply switching from original muzzleloader to pistol and back again.
Do I need to start my own thread to get the answers or have you called the batf yourself on this topic?
The 2011 letter said parts kit or collection of parts.
“it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts).”
@GunnSmokeer

 

[GunnSmokeer]

Muzzleloader to cartridge-firing pistol ?
The Black powder muzzleloader doesn't count as a firearm under federal law anyway. So what you did is you build a pistol and that's OK you can build a pistol and you can take it back to muzzleloader and to pistol again. What I don't think you can do it if you build it or buy it as a RIFLE first, I don't think you can change it legally into a pistol.
Making a pistol out of what was a rifle is something the ATF says is making an SBR.
The T/C Supreme Court case of 1979 Didn't address this issue because that involved a pistol that had a rifle kit as an accessory. Not a rifle that had a pistol kit as an accessory.

If it's legal to configure a Ruger model 10/22 into a Ruger charger handgun I'll do it in a heartbeat. I've got a couple of Ruger 10-22 rifles and I wouldn't mind one of them being changed into a handgun configuration. But I'm not going to buy another handgun registered receiver for this purpose, nor am I going to bother registering one of my 10-22s as an SBR just to legally put a 10 inch barrel on it, and replace the conventional wooden stock with a pistol grip, which would probably come from an ATI Dragunov style stock with the shoulder part of the stock cut off, leaving only the pistol grip.

 

[Mr Bya Lungshot]

Well first and foremost the contenders and encores frame are all considered a firearm and that’s a fact even when originally sold as a muzzleloader.

Second I ain’t switch nothin yet. I don’t even own the parts to switch the encore. I do want to buy them when I know it’s legal.

This video is from Smith and Wesson.
The only part “I” question is he says you can’t have a pistol grip on a frame with a barrel longer than 16 inches.
What about a pistol grip smooth bore shotgun as home defense?
The video states “exactly” to a t what the lady at TCA said. Except the home defense shotgun was not discussed by her and I.
I don’t doubt him or her but I doubt the specifics are 100% clear also.
@GunnSmokeer
I do appreciate your responses. But your missing specifics.
That Ruger is the closest to being similar but I do not know.
That’s why I’m asking. All encores and all contenders are firearm frames because of the fact a muzzleloader can be changed to a centerfire. Can a muzzleloader be changed into a rifle then a pistol and back again? What’s the actual legality of this interchangeable platform?

 

[GunnSmokeer]

Well first and foremost the contenders and encores frame are all considered a firearm and that’s a fact even when originally sold as a muzzleloader.
,,,

You're right. I just looked that up. Weird. Even if you don't own a cartridge-using barrel for it, just the fact that T/C makes them and many retailers sell them makes the receiver of the blackpowder inline-ignition T/C muzzle-loaders classified as firearms, not antiques.

So, what does that mean for all those popular Colt Walkers, the Colt 1860 Army, and 1860 Navy cap-and-ball pistols? I hear companies make "conversion cylinders" for them that allow the use of regular cartridges.

 

[Mr Bya Lungshot]

 

[rosewood]

So, if you buy a encore rifle at a gun store, on the BATF form, it says rifle. Then you convert it to a pistol, it is legal? Same scenario. You buy a AR15, it says rifle on form, you then convert it to a pistol, is it legal? My belief is, you are considered as manufacturing a firearm if you convert a rifle to a pistol by the current ATF rulings if it does not have pistol checked on the form.

My understanding, if the form says pistol, you can make it whatever you want as long as you follow the rules for that firearm type. If the form says rifle, then you cannot make it a pistol.

The problem here maybe the gun store. Maybe all encores and contenders should be sold as handguns regardless of the current configuration. Maybe that is S&W's intent, but many gun stores do not understand this, so they check the rifle box on the form when it is in a rifle configuration.

All Encore and Contenders are sold as firearms even if coming with a muzzleloader barrel. Unless you buy the Encore FX which is configured in such a way that you can not swap out barrels and put a smokeless powder barrel on it.

Rosewood

 

[rosewood]

You're right. I just looked that up. Weird. Even if you don't own a cartridge-using barrel for it, just the fact that T/C makes them and many retailers sell them makes the receiver of the blackpowder inline-ignition T/C muzzle-loaders classified as firearms, not antiques.

So, what does that mean for all those popular Colt Walkers, the Colt 1860 Army, and 1860 Navy cap-and-ball pistols? I hear companies make "conversion cylinders" for them that allow the use of regular cartridges.

Not sure what you read, but if the weapon can only be configured as a black powder, you can order it online and have it shipped to your door. Doesn't matter who the manufacturer is.

I bought a CVA Wolf recently from Academy. I did not fill out any forms, just took to front register and paid for it. They did check my license to make sure I was at least 18. CVA also makes smokeless powder rifles, I have 2 of them.

Rosewood

 

[Bobby Linton]

I have an encore. I will configure it however I please. I have always thought this is more of a hypothetical argument than real. When in gods name would anyone check what the receiver I'm using in the woods or at the range was originally sold as? The form from the original sale by law isn't in a database. If you aren't involved in any criminal activity this will never be an issue. Single shot hunting weapons are the last thing to get law enforcement attention. If the powers that be want you, they will just make up something like Randy Weaver. They don't have to dig this deep.

 

[Bobby Linton]

And.... the suggestion that owning a butt stock and an encore pistol at the same time shows criminal intent is asinine. Most encore owners I know are like me and have a tote full of stocks and barrels. Dont leave the house with a long barrel pistol or a short barrel rifle and stop worrying about it.

PS. The over the counter, no background check encore has been modified. It will not accept centerfire barrels.

 

[deast1988]

When I bought my Encore frame off Gunbroker I told them right it out as a pistol frame.

When I bought my contender frame same.

Never had an issue but if they wanna dig both stores have me buying pistol frames.

 

[Bobby Linton]

When I bought my Encore frame off Gunbroker I told them right it out as a pistol frame.

When I bought my contender frame same.

Never had an issue but if they wanna dig both stores have me buying pistol frames.

I bought a frame only from haus of arms. I guess one of the internet lawyers needs to tell me if it's a rifle or a pistol. Lol. All this misinformation just hurts a great product. Some folks on here must still sleep with the tags on their mattresses!

 

[deast1988]

I bought a frame only from haus of arms. I guess one of the internet lawyers needs to tell me if it's a rifle or a pistol. Lol. All this misinformation just hurts a great product. Some folks on here must still sleep with the tags on their mattresses!

My encore frame came from there, my gun store asked what it was for I told them it was goin to be a pistol. They took it over from there.

 

[Mr Bya Lungshot]

I bought a frame only from haus of arms. I guess one of the internet lawyers needs to tell me if it's a rifle or a pistol. Lol. All this misinformation just hurts a great product. Some folks on here must still sleep with the tags on their mattresses!

My encore frame came from there, my gun store asked what it was for I told them it was goin to be a pistol. They took it over from there.

Call TCA with serial number in hand. They will tell you what your frame left the factory as if made 1997 or later in about a minutes time.
Before 2011 official letter it mattered or seemed to matter, now I’m not sure if it does or not. Read that letter. Anything before that letter is void.

 

[Bobby Linton]

Call TCA with serial number in hand. They will tell you what your frame left the factory as if made 1997 or later in about a minutes time.
Before 2011 official letter it mattered or seemed to matter, now I’m not sure if it does or not. Read that letter. Anything before that letter is void.

We have had a lawyer on here give his opinion. Every supreme court case I have seen argued has two sets of lawyers in total disagreement about what a law means. My basic point is what circumstances will this ever matter? 40 percent of Murders in this country went unsolved last year. Law enforcement isn't going to come to my house and play mix and match with my tote of encore parts to see if I "could" build an illegal weapon. I think the premise is absurd. I own a hacksaw and a safe full of shotguns. Does that show constructive intent to saw one off too short?

 

[rosewood]

I agree with you Bobby. Unless they are after you for something else and just need to get some extra fodder for the court, how many cops even know about encores and contenders to know you can swap out parts? Not many I can tell you.