That God may be all in all?

hobbs27

Senior Member
It's really quiet simple for me to see. I trust the scriptures are true, and I test it with the scriptures, and I'm always seeing more and more connected to fulfillment.



Revelation 3: YLT
10 `Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

11 Lo, I come quickly, be holding fast that which thou hast, that no one may receive thy crown.
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Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I think I believe the way I do is because of Paul's description of Israel and the Gentiles in Romans 9-11. It paints a picture of Israel being in a deferred salvation state.
Backing up a bit to Daniel 12:2, I know you, Hobbs, see this as a reference to a national revival comparing it to Ezek 37.
Daniel however places this resurrection at the end. Daniel, sees it when ‘Jacob’s trouble’ ends in the final deliverance of Israel and the resurrection of the righteous.
Daniel sees his own resurrection at this time.

Daniel 12:13
"As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

I believe that since Paul also wrote Romans 9-11, it follows Daniels vision of the resurrection.

Now back to Romans 9-11. Paul sees a point in time that removes Israel's blindness. The re-grafting of the natural branches to their own olive tree. The time when the “deliverer comes out of Zion to turn ungodliness away from Jacob.”

Psalm 14:7
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

Joel 3:16
The LORD will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the heavens will tremble. But the LORD will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.

Romans 11:26-27
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Paul is using what Daniel saw. This has not happened yet the way Paul presents it in Romans 9-11. We haven't seen the correct events yet.
This partial hardening has come over Israel. A remnant was chosen. The Gentiles then being allowed to be grafted to the Olive Tree. Until the full number of Gentiles comes in. Then all Israel will be saved.

I know there are different ways of seeing this "all of Israel will be saved." Some believe it's one way for the Jews and another way for the Gentiles. I don't believe that to be true. Jesus said he is the only way.
Still though Paul was not seeking God. God chose him. So in the way election works, which has nothing to do with works, God the Potter can have mercy on whom he has mercy.

We don't really know who this "all Israel" will be. It can't be the Remnant and it can't be the Church. Here Paul is talking about physical Israel after the Remnant was elected and not by works mind you.
Regardless Christ has to be the fulfillment of "all Israel." Their blindness must be removed. God can have mercy and elect Jews just as he did Paul and us Gentiles. True still is that in Romans 9 Paul says; For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel but in Romans 11 he is talking about national Israel. God may have mercy on Jews as well as Gentiles. Again he elected Paul who wasn't seeking. He can remove anyone's blindness.

We can't ignore the olive-tree metaphor in Romans 11. We have a fullness of Israel and we have a fullness of Gentiles mentioned in Romans 11. In Romans 11, the name "Israel" is consistently used in an ethnic sense, meaning the Jewish people. "To turn ungodliness away from Jacob."
The faithful Remnant as all Israel doesn't fit the narrative either. Paul is concerned with the other group, those hardened.

Paul is talking about the ones hardened. Not the Remnant nor the Church. Earlier Paul referred to his fellow countrymen. That's the group Paul is questioning? What will happen to them? What is God's plan for them? Do they still have a future and when?

It just looks like a future event when "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."
I haven't seen or read in scripture about any type of election or mass conversion in Jacob from Paul or Daniel.

I haven't seen the Potter having mercy on whom he will have mercy in relation to Jacob(Israel) as described in Romans 11.

Romans 11:29-31
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

This event has to happen after the Deliverer comes to remove
Godlessness from Jacob.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Daniel is told by an angel when the resurrection would be. 70 ad, it would take 42 months.. Time, Times, and half a time, for all things to be fulfilled when the power of the Holy People ( Jew's) was shattered. Then the resurrection.

Daniel 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
 
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Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Daniel is told by an angel when the resurrection would be. 70 ad, it would take 42 months.. Time, Times, and half a time, for all things to be fulfilled when the power of the Holy People ( Jew's) was shattered. Then the resurrection.

Daniel 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

It's funny how we all pick and choose what is literal and what is symbolic to fit our own beliefs.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Hobbs,
If the resurrection was the "body of death" being Moses' body, into which ALL Israel was baptized, how do you justify that this is not Universalism?

If "all in all" happened in 70ad and death from sin was finished, if all Israel was saved? If the last enemy to be destroyed is death, meaning spiritual death?

If Christ is risen, and returned and conquered ALL of his enemies isn't death defeated and ALL humanity is reconciled to God?

How do we live physically without salvation if all has already happened?

I just can't get into watching a Don Preston or even a Kurt Simmons video.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Romans 5:19
Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.

Many?

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.

All?

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Many?

Romans 5:18
Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

All?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

All?

Nothing to do with Preterism or Futurism but Universalism concerning the many vs the all.
All have sinned. Jesus died for all sin. All in all. Mercy on all. All will hear. All will bow. All Israel will be saved. Who desires all men to be saved.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
All doesn't always mean all. I've shown the present system in Revelation 22:17. All in All, simply means Everything, Everywhere..

There's no universalism in scripture. Don Preston is not a universalist and as far as I know neither is Kurt Simmons, although he went astray some years back, so I havent heard anything on his position in a while. I do have one of his older books that I enjoy from time to time though.
 
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