That God's purpose in election might stand...

hobbs27

Senior Member
#21
Not that this would change your mind, but try taking your preterist goggles off and reading it again. And keep in mind that where faith and salvation are concerned, Paul never is referring to a physical Jew or Gentile. It's spiritual. You always stumble on this point.
Maybe this is why Paul labled it as a "mystery".(Col.1:26-27)
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

You.. Physical Gentiles
 
#22
Jer. 7
21 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh. 22 For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’ 24 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward. 25 Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets, daily rising early and sending them. 26 Yet they did not listen to Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck; they did more evil than their fathers.
 
#23
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

You.. Physical Gentiles
I can't seem to get you to see that the physical is used to show the spiritual.
All you ever seem to get is the physical, and miss the other(spiritual), which is actually the essential thing.
 
#24
All you have to do is read Ephesians 1 and notice the predestined Jewish us and the not predestined gentile you...read it, and tell me you see no difference in one group of Christians predestined and another not... The Jewish us... The Gentile you.

The entire doctrine of election today is based on an error.
"the predestined Jewish us" is the Elect?
"Chosen by grace and not by works"
"Chosen to be the Bride of Christ"

Are you still saying they were not elected for salvation? That somehow they already "had" salvation and were elected out of a larger salvation group to be the Bride of Christ?
I understand you believe the Remnant of Jews were the only Elect and that the Elect was the Bride of Christ.
What I don't understand is what you believe their election granted them if not salvation. I'm assuming you believe they already had salvation and were elected to be a smaller group of believers known as "The Bride of Christ."

Maybe an easier question. Were the Elect predestined to receive salvation, regardless of who they were?
 
#25
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

You.. Physical Gentiles
Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Israel- Physical Jews
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#26
"the predestined Jewish us" is the Elect?
"Chosen by grace and not by works"
"Chosen to be the Bride of Christ"

Are you still saying they were not elected for salvation? That somehow they already "had" salvation and were elected out of a larger salvation group to be the Bride of Christ?
I understand you believe the Remnant of Jews were the only Elect and that the Elect was the Bride of Christ.
What I don't understand is what you believe their election granted them if not salvation. I'm assuming you believe they already had salvation and were elected to be a smaller group of believers known as "The Bride of Christ."

Maybe an easier question. Were the Elect predestined to receive salvation, regardless of who they were?
I don't think their salvation had anything to do with their election.. Their election made them.
The Remnant
The Elect
The First Fruits ( first to be saved)
The 144,000
 
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#27
I don't think their salvation had anything to do with their election.. Their election made them.
The Remnant
The Elect
The First Fruits ( first to be saved)
The 144,000
OK, then that is the "predestined Jewish us" in your post 19 from Ephesians 1.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

If one was predestined to be of this Elect as you believe, it would require them to have salvation. Thus if predestined by God, this election by grace, would have to include salvation.

It's not like God predestined them to be of the Elect(bride of Christ) without not also having predestined their salvation.
 
#28
I don't think their salvation had anything to do with their election.. Their election made them.
The Remnant
The Elect
The First Fruits ( first to be saved)
The 144,000
What about the rest of the Jews? The ones that were hardened? Were they not hardened according to the plan of God who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will?

Just thinking here, if God predestined the chosen remnant of Jews, then wouldn't that mean he predestined the hardened Jews as well?

For His purpose which was to bring in the true Children of the Promise? Their trespass meant riches for the world, and their failure meant riches for the Gentiles.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
#29
I can't seem to get you to see that the physical is used to show the spiritual.
All you ever seem to get is the physical, and miss the other(spiritual), which is actually the essential thing.
A view from above is a miraculous thing. Without it, a man is confined within creation and the relationship that exist between created objects.

A man will not reflect upon the eternal covenant of grace, made before the world began... and Christ our covenant Surety.
 
#30
I can't seem to get you to see that the physical is used to show the spiritual.
All you ever seem to get is the physical, and miss the other(spiritual), which is actually the essential thing.
A view from above is a miraculous thing. Without it, a man is confined within creation and the relationship that exist between created objects.

A man will not reflect upon the eternal covenant of grace, made before the world began... and Christ our covenant Surety.
Yes, there is a way forward and there is a way backward (Post #22).
 
#33
I read it again. I see predestination and the election of Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 9:24
And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

Romans 9:33
God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, "I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced."
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#34
I read it again. I see predestination and the election of Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 9:24
And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

Romans 9:33
God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, "I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced."

No you don't see predestination of Gentiles.. you see Gentiles being called into the family of God in which they were never a part of.

As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

there's no predestination of Gentiles in scripture.
 
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hobbs27

Senior Member
#35
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Notice* Gentiles were ordained upon hearing the Gospel... Not pre-ordained
 
#37
No you don't see predestination of Gentiles.. you see Gentiles being called into the family of God in which they were never a part of.

As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

there's no predestination of Gentiles in scripture.
Wow, I really lost following you on the Jerusalem thread.

Galatians 4:28
And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac.

That the true children were never from physical Jerusalem but always were from spiritual Jerusalem?

I thought you said it has always been. I guess I misunderstood why you said that.

I thought you believed the children of the promise was Jews and Gentiles from spiritual Jerusalem and that it had always been that way. Did it change from physical Jerusalem to spiritual Jerusalem because of physical Israel's rejection of Christ?
 
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#38
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Notice* Gentiles were ordained upon hearing the Gospel... Not pre-ordained
Then you believe the children of the promise were once physical Israel. That something happened to change this to the children being from spiritual Israel.
Something to allow the Gentiles to be called and ordained. Something they were never a part of. Something to allow the gospel to go out to the world. Something that enabled Jesus present this new expanded kingdom over to his Father.

As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
#39
Wow, I really lost following you on the Jerusalem thread.

Galatians 4:28
And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac.

That the true children were never from physical Jerusalem but always were from spiritual Jerusalem?

I thought you said it has always been. I guess I misunderstood why you said that.

I thought you believed the children of the promise was Jews and Gentiles from spiritual Jerusalem and that it had always been that way.
You think election is about individual salvation. It wasn't, it was about establishing the New covenant.... The elect took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
You will find no where in scripture that a gentile is elected or pre ordained to salvation.

I've demonstrated that in Ephesians 1 and 2.
 
#40
As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

That would be a good subject to discuss. It does sound like God's people changed. Otherwise how could God call people who were not his people, be his?

And "her"? Spiritual Jerusalem? Who was not beloved who is now? New wife?

Romans 9:26
And, "Then, at the place where they were told, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'children of the living God.'"

Where was the very place where they were told this? This very place where God would put the "new" children? The "new" children of the promise?
 
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