The Children of the promise?

[hummerpoo]

Galatians 6:15-16 New Living Translation (NLT)
15 It doesn’t matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation. 16 May God’s peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new people of God.

Exemplary translation shopping.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Paul is in anguish because he knows their time was running out. They were in the last days and those that did not accept Christ would soon be under great tribulation. His kinsmen.

Physical Israel, and the Jews that chose the law over the spirit were children of the flesh IE . Old covenant ..Hagar.

Christ made the ultimate sacrifice to bring them out of that bondage, that they may be born again ( from above). They were made jealous in an attempt to draw them into the Gospel...God was working on them, drawing them out of the harlot, bringing all those , whosoever wills into His church. That they may be born of The Seed (Christ) and the New Covenant Sarah.
Only folks born from above are children of the promise...the promise being the kingdom of God and eternal life.

You said on another thread;
There is an image of two Israel's as set forth by Ishmael and Isaac.
Ishmael being the fleshly seed of Abraham, ( flesh representing the law system) and Isaac being the seed of Abraham in Spirit.

In Galatians 4, this is used as an illustration or allegorically. Paul was using Sarah/Isaac and Hagar/Ishmael as representations of the Law and Grace. Hagar/Ishmael were the Law. Hagar corresponds to physical Jerusalem and the Law.
Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem.

Hagar is slavery and Sarah is freedom in this illustration.

Ishmael was a child of flesh and Isaac was a child of promise and born by the Spirit. A child of God, elected by God.

And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac.

You said; Only folks born from above are children of the promise.
Don't you think you may have that backwards? If we are to compare our being a child of promise with that of Isaac?

Galatians 4:30
But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."

Realizing this story in Galatians is an illustration of the Law and grace and back to reality:

Genesis 17:19-20
But God replied, “Your wife Sarah will indeed bear you a son, and you are to name him Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20As for Ishmael, I have heard you, and I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He will become the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

What was Ishmael's inheritance from God? It wasn't a covenant inheritance such as the Law given through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then Moses.

Just showing you that the illustration in Galatians was just that.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Genesis 17:19
Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

Isaac gets a covenant with God, Ishmael gets a nation.

Genesis 17:23
On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him.

Interesting, a circumcised Arab blessed by God.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I was going to move on and finish Romans 11 but this "everlasting covenant" got me to revisit chapter 9.

Being descendants of Abraham doesn't make them truly Abraham's children. We know that Abraham had many children of the flesh to include Ishmael and other children.

We also know that the child of promise was Isaac and that is who the everlasting covenant was passed on through.

We also know that the children of the flesh through Ishmael are not God's children but the children of the Spirit through Isaac are.
Isaac was the child of promise. It is through Isaac that your children will be counted.

Then on to the twins of Isaac, Esau and Jacob. God chooses Jacob, and not by works mind you. Another child of the promise is chosen. The lineage continues.

God says to Moses “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

We could also say that not all of Isaac's descendants were children of the promise as well but only those of Jacob.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Genesis 48:14
And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it on Ephraim’s head, who was the younger, and his left hand on Manasseh’s head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

Another child of promise?

 

[hobbs27]

What if Ishmael was never suppose to represent Arab nations as we are taught today, but was always meant to represent the children of old covenant Jerusalem? Allegorically speaking.
Old covenant Jerusalem is called , Babylon, Sodom and a Harlot in scripture.

Ishmael was the father of twelve rulers. How many houses of Israel?

 

[Artfuldodger]

What if Ishmael was never suppose to represent Arab nations as we are taught today, but was always meant to represent the children of old covenant Jerusalem? Allegorically speaking.
Old covenant Jerusalem is called , Babylon, Sodom and a Harlot in scripture.

Ishmael was the father of twelve rulers. How many houses of Israel?

I was trying to see it from that perspective as well. God had Abraham circumcise Ishmael. Circumcision being a sign of a covenant.

God blessed Ishmael and promised to make him a great nation as well.
He just wasn't the "child of promise" that Isaac was. He was a child of a fleshy union. Ishmael had promise from God, just not a covenant inheritance. He had promises but not "the promise."

Paul did use him as an illustration for the Old covenant Jerusalem.
Ishmael wasn't the heir of inheritance. That was to be Isaac's.

That still doesn't explain this;
"It is through Isaac that your children will be counted."
We still have that physical lineage or genealogy from Isaac and Jacob. Jacob is physical Israel as well as spiritual Israel. The remnant can trace their lineage through Jacob. That's the lineage from the "child of promise."

"the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship"
"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah,"
The lineage from Isaac has to be physical as well as spiritual in order for Jesus to come from that genealogy.

Also we know that the Deliverer will remove ungodliness from Jacob,
(physical Israel).

 

[Artfuldodger]

What if Ishmael was never suppose to represent Arab nations as we are taught today, but was always meant to represent the children of old covenant Jerusalem? Allegorically speaking.
Old covenant Jerusalem is called , Babylon, Sodom and a Harlot in scripture.

Ishmael was the father of twelve rulers. How many houses of Israel?

Still looking from that perspective, in Romans 9 Paul said;
"For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

I assumed that meant from Jacob. For not all who are descended from Jacob are Israel.
Maybe it means not all who are from physical Israel are spiritual Israel.
I can't find an interpretation that uses Jacob for the first Israel.

So if it's the second interpretation or a something totally different, Maybe some of physical Israel did come from Ishmael but not the ones promised through Isaac.
Paul goes on to show that some of Abraham's descendants are from other children. Children of the flesh. Only some of Abraham's descendants are from the children of Isaac. Not all of Isaac's descendants are children of the promise either as some belong to Esau. They didn't come from Jacob.

So maybe not all of Israel is Israel. They all could be from Abraham but not Jacob. Some from Ishmael, some from Esau, and even if we continue with Jacob's children. How many interventions did God perform until the one and only true begotten Son was born?
I say every birth in that genealogy was a child of promise.

"It is through Isaac that your children will be counted."

 

[Artfuldodger]

I don't think we can totally desperate the spiritual from the physical. At least not yet. Not as long as we are still physical.

God chose Israel and made an everlasting covenant with them. Paul tells us this in Roman 9-11. The genealogy is still there. It hasn't changed from one promise to another. It was just added to, enlarged.

Ephesians 2:12-14
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility

 

[hobbs27]

The endless covenant is the new covenant through Christ, the seed of Abraham. Only those of Christ are the children of the promise.

The Changeless Promise
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it isconfirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ

 

[Artfuldodger]

The endless covenant is the new covenant through Christ, the seed of Abraham. Only those of Christ are the children of the promise.

The Changeless Promise
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it isconfirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ

Then the promise was only made to Jesus? How can there be children of the promise if the promise was only made to Abraham's Seed which is Jesus?

That's the only promise God has ever made with Abraham? That Jesus would be his Seed. What about "It is through Isaac that your children will be counted?"

 

[Artfuldodger]

Genesis 15:18
On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-

Is this God promising to the Seed of Abraham which is Jesus?

Genesis 26:3
Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham.

Is this is a promise to Isaac, the child of promise, or to Jesus?

Hebrews 6:13-14
When God made His promise to Abraham, since He had no one greater to swear by, He swore by Himself, 14saying, “I will surely bless you and multiply your descendants.”

This is a promise to the Seed?

Again I repeat;
"It is through Isaac that your children will be counted."

 

[Artfuldodger]

A promise of restoration in Jeremiah 32;
This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says:

Jeremiah 32:37-39
I will surely gather My people from all the lands to which I have banished them in My furious anger and great wrath, and I will return them to this place and make them dwell in safety. 38They will be My people, and I will be their God. 39I will give them one heart and one way, so that they will always fear Me for their own good and for the good of their children after them.

Ezekiel 37:26
I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.


Ezekiel 36:29
I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you.

“The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob."

 

[Artfuldodger]

I'm back on Ishmael again. This was something I found interesting;

"The difference one will argue is the Mother giving he birth. As Isac was born to Sarai and Abram, his half sister yet of the same people.
Wile Hagar was Egyptian so Ishmael had Hebrew father and Egyptian mother.

But Asenath was the wife of Joseph and the mother of Ephraim and Manasseh. The daughter of Poti-pherah the priest of On. The Egyptian Pharaoh gave to Joseph, son of Jacob, Asenath, to be his wife. She bore Joseph two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who each became patriarchs of their own tribes of Israel.

This shows that Hagar been Egyptian is not having any effect on the fact the Ishmael was a Hebrew, because he was a son of Abraham the Hebrew."


“And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.”

What great nation was this? God made the 12 into one great nation.

"Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore unto Abraham: And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth, and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadad and Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedmah. These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns and by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations." Genesis 25:12-16

I wonder what this great nation is? Maybe it hasn't been made yet. It was a promise from God.

 

[hobbs27]

I see old covenant Israel as a shadow of the New Covenant Israel from above. Israelites as a shadow of Christian's, IE Gods children!

Paul said the hope of Israel was the resurrection. So those that died and were in Sheol were awaiting the Seed of Abraham (Jesus), that they may hear and be raised ...born from above. Those living at that time had to hear ( understand and believe) the Gospel that they too could be born from above. They would be brought together into one body ( group of people) as citizens of the New Jerusalem...Kingdom of God.

Today that shadow has passed. Israel is just a heathen nation and always will be.

 

[Brother David]

Simple answer the way I understand it .
The Children of Promise are the Jewish people through the line of Seth , the Gentiles are the rest of Us . John 1:12 lets us know through belief we have become Children of God ( basically we're adopted ) . The Jewish people will get second chance to repent during judgement , the Gentiles won't .

 

[Artfuldodger]

Simple answer the way I understand it .
The Children of Promise are the Jewish people through the line of Seth , the Gentiles are the rest of Us . John 1:12 lets us know through belief we have become Children of God ( basically we're adopted ) . The Jewish people will get second chance to repent during judgement , the Gentiles won't .

I think everything in the Old Testament may be a shadow of the future. Adam, the flood, the Ark, the covenants, Ishmael & Isaac, Esau & Jacob, etc.

We can all see the similarities and how they mirrored future events. We can use them as illustrations, allegories, types, shadows, mirrors, etc.

Just a the ark can be used to show the Ark, Paul used Ishmael and Isaac to show the Law and Freedom, hardening & election, promises old and new, eternal promises, mercy and grace, and we must include reconciliation.

Perhaps Ishmael and Isaac can be used to show this reconciliation. Each as a shadow of a great nation. I assume God's plan included Ishmael's great nation as well.

 

[Artfuldodger]

It's seems very deep for me to think about the whole Old Testament being orchestrated by God to provide these types and shadows.
The whole Jewish genealogy thing. The promises to Abraham. All of the twists in that genealogy's history. The marriage and family turmoil within Abraham's family tree. The adultery, the family feuds, the brothers fighting, the jealousy, the broken promises, the strife, the crisis, the election and predestination, the covenants, God's intervention, the prophesy, and on and on.

We're talking a 7,000 year plan. All just to provide types, mirrors, and shadows? All of this and to say it has nothing to do with physical Israel but to provide shadows? The God of Israel?

The kings, kingdoms, wars, nations, marriages, divorces, adultery, harlots, slavery, etc.

I might could see it that way if it was only 300 years. Too much genealogy and time just to provide a path for Jesus to be born Jewish.
Just to provide shadows of the future.

 

[Artfuldodger]

“I will make you into a great nation,"

"It is through Isaac that your children will be counted."

Israel in part? Israel within Israel? Not all of Israel is Israel.

“a partial hardening has happened to Israel"

"as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,"

Ezekiel 20:5
and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘On the day I chose Israel, I swore an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt. With an uplifted hand I said to them, “I am the LORD your God.”

Has God cancelled his promises to Israel? Were the Old Testament promises just a mirror or shadow of the new covenant?

 

[hummerpoo]

It's seems very deep for me to think about the whole Old Testament being orchestrated by God to provide these types and shadows.
The whole Jewish genealogy thing. The promises to Abraham. All of the twists in that genealogy's history. The marriage and family turmoil within Abraham's family tree. The adultery, the family feuds, the brothers fighting, the jealousy, the broken promises, the strife, the crisis, the election and predestination, the covenants, God's intervention, the prophesy, and on and on.

We're talking a 7,000 year plan. All just to provide types, mirrors, and shadows? All of this and to say it has nothing to do with physical Israel but to provide shadows? The God of Israel?

The kings, kingdoms, wars, nations, marriages, divorces, adultery, harlots, slavery, etc.

I might could see it that way if it was only 300 years. Too much genealogy and time just to provide a path for Jesus to be born Jewish.
Just to provide shadows of the future.

See if you can rethink this post making it consistent with Rm. 2:11, and other like passages. If you succeed, you may even find that it has a profound effect on the stumbling block between the OT and the NT.