THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY

Thread starter #1
ELOHIM. This is the Hebrew for "God" in Gen. 1:1 and 2,700 other places in the Old Testament. It is a uni-plural noun meaning 'Gods" and is so translated 239 times (Gen. 3:5; Ex. 22:28; 1 Sam. 4:8;Dan. 2:11; 4:6-9; 5:11, 14.It is the plural of Eloah meaning deity and God. It is used in the plural with the definite of the Supreme God. It is translated "judges" (Ex. 21:6; 22:8, 9) and "angels" (Ps. 8:5). Sometimes Elohim is used in connection with plural verbs and pronouns, as seen in Hebrew text of Gen. 20:13, "the Gods they caused me to wander" and in Gen. 35:7, "there the Gods they appeared unto him." Many times plural pronouns are used of God in referring to the different members of the Godhead, as "us" (Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8; John 17:21), "our"(Gen. 1:26; John 14:23), "we" ( John 14:23; 17:11, 22) and "their" (Ps.2:3).

First, second and third personal pronouns are used hundreds of times in Scripture of one, two, and three persons in the Deity. Some of these are used OF men TO and CONCERNING different members of the Deity TO and OF each other. In John 17 alone Jesus uses 162 pronouns in speaking TO and OF His Father. In Ps. 119 there are 610 pronouns used of man TO and OF God. Other chapters in the Bible have many like pronouns and they are all used right and should be understood in the same sense in connection with God as we understand them when they are used of other subjects. When the different members of Deity speak TO and OF each other just like men do, should we accuse them of misrepresenting themselves and of not being able to properly use the human language. We have more right to believe that only one person is referred to when men use first, second, and third personal singular and plural pronouns OF and TO each other, as to believe there is only one person referred to when the members of the Godhead use them OF and TO each other.

When singular pronouns are used of Deity it is one of the three persons of the Trinity speaking of Himself or as representing the whole Godhead, or it is one of the three divine persons speaking to another one concerning a third person of the Trinity, as is clear in John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; 17:1-25.

In the Old Testament it was the Father who was the prominent speaker (Heb. 1:1-3; Acts 3:21) ; in the gospels the Son was the prominent speaker (John 5:47; 6:33; 8:26, 28, 38; 12:49, 50; 17:8) ; and now it is the Holy Spirit who is the prominent speaker (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-15; Acts 2:4; 13:2; 15:28; 20:28).

Singular pronouns are sometimes used of the whole Godhead as a unity (Ex. 20:3; Isa. 44:6, 8; 45:5, 21; 46:9; Hos. 13:4) , just like the whole church as the body of Christ as a unity is spoken of as a "man" and "he" (Eph. 2:14, 15; 4:13; 5:25-27; 2 Thess. 2:7, 8).

The one Elohim then is not one person, or one in number, but one in unity. Elohim is not a divided Deity, but three persons in "One God," or one Deity. The word itself does not say there are three, but merely that Deity is in the plural. God is thus referred to in the plural twice as many times as the word "Jesus" is found in both Testaments.
 
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Thread starter #3
A "uni-plural noun," interesting. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Is that three uni's that make a plural or three plurals that make a uni?
Gen. 3:22 And the LORD God said, behold the man is become AS ONE OF US (us meaning more than one person) to know good and evil : and now, lest he put forth his hand. and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.
 
Thread starter #4
YEHOVAH. This is the Hebrew word for "Lord" in Deut. 6:4 and 7,600 times in the Old Testament. It means the Self-existent, Eternal and Immutable One, or unity. It does not tell us how many persons are in the "One [Unified] Lord," but the Scriptures mention three persons who are called "Lord" and who are Self-existent" and "Eternal" and therefore, all of them can all be called "Jehovah." In Gen. 19:24; Ps. 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10, 11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7, 8 and Isa. 6:8, 9 with acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7, with Heb. 3:7-9 and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15, 16 prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord" or "Jehovah." Yehovah is rendered "Jehovah" fours times (Ex. 6:3; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 12:2; 26:4). Jehovah is used in many compound names of Deity.

El. This is the Hebrew word for "God" in 250 places. It means the Strong One, or Elohim the Omnipotent, while Elohim is God the Creator, putting His omnipotence to work. All three persons are omnipotent.

Eloah. This is the Hebrew word for "God" in 56 places. it is Elohim who is to be worshipped. It is the name of God when worship of idols is contrasted to worship of the true God. It is "the living God" in contrast to dead gods. It means Deity and God.

Elyon. This the Hebrew word for "Most High," and it is so translated 40 times . It means the Supreme, Most High, Highest, Lofty. It is El, the possessor of Heavens and Earth, and Elohim, the creator of Heaven and Earth. It is translated "High" (Ps. 78:35; Dan. 4:2) ; and "higher" in referring to Jesus as God's "first-born" (Ps. 89:27). Jesus of the New Testament is never called the Most High, but only the son of the Most High God (Mark 5:7; Luke 1:32-35; 8:28). Angels, when Christ was born, sang to the "God in the highest," who was not Jesus (Luke 2:14). The Father is still the "head of Christ" (1 Cor. 11:3) ; so He is rightfully the Most High God.

Adon. This is the Hebrew word for "Lord" and it is so translated 195 times in the Old Testament. It means Sovereign, ruler, Master. Adonai is the emphatic form of Adon and is translated "Lord" 430 times in the Old Testament. It is also translated "lords" 4 times (Gen. 19:2; Deut. 10:17; Ps. 136:3; Isa. 26:13). There are two Adonais mentioned in Ps. 110:1 and referred to in the New Testament as the Father and the Son (Matt. 22:44).

A few other names of God in the Old Testament are "JAH" (Ps. 68:4, 18) ; "I AM THAT I AM" and "I AM" (Ex. 3:13-15) ; "God Almighty" (Ex. 6:3) ; "Lord God" (Gen. 2:4 and hundreds of times ) ; "Jealous" (Ex. 34:14) ; "The Lord of Hosts" (Isa. 47:4 and 281 other times) ; "Holy" (Isa. 57:15) ; and many other names, thus proving that the doctrine that "Jesus" is the only God and the only name of that God is unscriptural. If God said these were His Names and some human beings say they are not His names, who are we to believe? Some believe that all these names are titles signifying office, rank, or relationship, but this is mere human theory and contradicts the Scriptures which say they are real names.

God's names are found 19,000 times in the Bible in connection with His eternal plan of creation and redemption of all things and His eternal rulership over all creations (Dan. 2:44, 45; 7:13, 14, 27; Luke 1:32, 33; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Eph. 1:10; 2:7; Rev. 5:10; 11:15; 22:4, 5).
 
I would agree that the Father is most high and Jesus is the Son of the most high. Christ eventually turns the kingdom over to his Father.
Maybe the Father and Son is presented as a way to show in humans relationships the roles of the Father and his Son.

But God the Father and his Son were before human Fathers had Sons. That means our father/son image is based on God's Father/Son image.

There is something human about the father & son relationship but the spiritual Father & son relationship came first. Is it more than God doing it for us to have an example such as with marriage?

There are verses where Jesus says the Father is greater than him. Many say that this was only when the Spiritual Son incarnate as the physical Son. Yet even before the incarnations, the Son was still the Son. He didn't become a son at his incarnation, he was already the Son of God. God didn't become a Father at his Son's incarnation. They shared this father/son relationship before as spirits.
 
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John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

Don't we all receive life from our Fathers?
 
Look up "The Athanasian Creed" ;)
That's still three co-eternal and co-equal persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I think Banjopicker is presenting that they may have always existed but perhaps in a non co-equal way.
More like a human father/son relationship. They could have always been co-eternal but still having a son subordinate to the father relationship even before the incarnation.

The Father sent the Son to the Earth.
 
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John 8:42 Jesus said to them, ..."I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

John 10:36 ...Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world

John 13:3 Jesus, knowing that ...He had come forth from God, and was going back to God,

John 16:28 "I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father."

John 17:5 "And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

John 17:8 ...[they] truly understood that I came forth from Thee, and they believed that Thou didst send Me.

John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Rom. 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Gal. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

There are some more verses as well that show the Father "sent" his Son. This father/son relationship existed for eternity. The Son of God didn't give up his equality at his incarnation. He never had it. He was God's Son from eternity.

If he was co-equal, the Father could not "send" his Son. If he was co-equal, the Father could not "give" us his Son to die for our sins.
 
That's still three co-eternal and co-equal persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I think Banjopicker is presenting that they may have always existed but perhaps in a non co-equal way.
Perhaps I am looking at it wrong then. Where the Apostles Creed (300ad)? failed to assign divinity to the Son & the Holy Spirit, the Athanasian Creed corrects that issue and clears up the confusion of the Triun God that existed for a couple of centuries prior. It is easiest identified in it's symbolum.

The Father IS NOT the Son, the Son IS NOT the Holy Spirit nor is the Holy Spirit the Father. God IS the Father, God IS the Son, God IS the Holy Spirit. Assigning divinity to all three yet keeping all three separate in their role as a diety. One God / Three Persons.

 
Interesting..... the details of the triune god are discussed so much..... yet no where in Scripture do we see Paul having to explain it? It's as if they understood it fully, without question, debate or need to clarify?
 
Thread starter #14
NAMES OF GOD IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

1. Theos. This is the Greek word for "God" and is used 1,332 times in the New Testament. It means Deity and God, and with the definite article means the Supreme Deity. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost are all called God,.
2. Kurios. This is the Greek word for "Lord" and is used 672 times in the New Testament. It means Lord, Master, and Sir and is used of man 31 times.
3. Iesous. This is the Greek word for "Jesus" 979 times in the New Testament. It is the Greek form of the Hebrew Yehowshua, rendered "Joshua" 215 times in the Old Testament. Joshua of the Old Testament is called "Jesus" in the New Testament in Acts 7:45; Heb. 4:8. Jesus is never the name of the Father, or of the Spirit in either Testament, and it was not the name of the second person of the Godhead until He became man and the Son of God about 1900 years ago. It is the Human name of the Son of God.
4. Christos. This is the Greek word which we translate "Christ," and it is used of the Hebrew mashiyach, translated "Messiah" twice in the Old Testament (Dan. 9:24-26) and twice in the New Testament (John 1:41; 4:25). Like the name Jesus, it has no reference to Deity, but to the humanity of Jesus Christ, who became the Christ or the Anointed One thirty years after He born in a human body and after He was named "Jesus".

Other names apart from those mentioned above of God's Son were not all true of Him until He assumed these titles. For example, He had to become man before He could be called the Son of man, the Son of God, Jesus, Christ, Lord Jesus Christ, Messiah, Emmanuel, Son of David, the Lion of the Trible of Juda, the Lamb of God, Mediator, and many other names. Two passages (Gal. 3:17; 1 Peter 1:11) are used by some to teach that "Christ" was a name of Jesus back in Old Testament times, but upon examination of them we find this is not the case. The phrase "in Christ" in Gal. 3:17 is omitted in the texts and was added by some transcriber. It is not in the R. V., Weymouth, Centenary Translation, Concordant Version, Nestle's Greek Text, Moffatt, and many other translations . The second passage must be understood in the light of what Peter would naturally say about Jesus after He became the Christ, or the anointed God. In referring to actions of the second person of the Trinity in the Old Testament times one may speak of Christ doing them, but in reality He was not the Christ in Old Testament when He did them. At that Time, He was God but not the Son of God or the Anointed of God. Now, since He became man and "Christ" this name could be used of Him in speaking of something He did before He became the Anointed One.
 
NAMES OF GOD IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

1. Theos. This is the Greek word for "God" and is used 1,332 times in the New Testament. It means Deity and God, and with the definite article means the Supreme Deity. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost are all called God,.
2. Kurios. This is the Greek word for "Lord" and is used 672 times in the New Testament. It means Lord, Master, and Sir and is used of man 31 times.
3. Iesous. This is the Greek word for "Jesus" 979 times in the New Testament. It is the Greek form of the Hebrew Yehowshua, rendered "Joshua" 215 times in the Old Testament. Joshua of the Old Testament is called "Jesus" in the New Testament in Acts 7:45; Heb. 4:8. Jesus is never the name of the Father, or of the Spirit in either Testament, and it was not the name of the second person of the Godhead until He became man and the Son of God about 1900 years ago. It is the Human name of the Son of God.
4. Christos. This is the Greek word which we translate "Christ," and it is used of the Hebrew mashiyach, translated "Messiah" twice in the Old Testament (Dan. 9:24-26) and twice in the New Testament (John 1:41; 4:25). Like the name Jesus, it has no reference to Deity, but to the humanity of Jesus Christ, who became the Christ or the Anointed One thirty years after He born in a human body and after He was named "Jesus".

Other names apart from those mentioned above of God's Son were not all true of Him until He assumed these titles. For example, He had to become man before He could be called the Son of man, the Son of God, Jesus, Christ, Lord Jesus Christ, Messiah, Emmanuel, Son of David, the Lion of the Trible of Juda, the Lamb of God, Mediator, and many other names. Two passages (Gal. 3:17; 1 Peter 1:11) are used by some to teach that "Christ" was a name of Jesus back in Old Testament times, but upon examination of them we find this is not the case. The phrase "in Christ" in Gal. 3:17 is omitted in the texts and was added by some transcriber. It is not in the R. V., Weymouth, Centenary Translation, Concordant Version, Nestle's Greek Text, Moffatt, and many other translations . The second passage must be understood in the light of what Peter would naturally say about Jesus after He became the Christ, or the anointed God. In referring to actions of the second person of the Trinity in the Old Testament times one may speak of Christ doing them, but in reality He was not the Christ in Old Testament when He did them. At that Time, He was God but not the Son of God or the Anointed of God. Now, since He became man and "Christ" this name could be used of Him in speaking of something He did before He became the Anointed One.
Annointed God? What a mess
 
Isaiah 42:1
Here is My Servant, whom I uphold, My Chosen One, in whom My soul delights. I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will bring justice to the nations.

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Acts 4:26
The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.'

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


Now some will say that because of the incarnation, Jesus gave up his divinity. Maybe he didn't give it up but used his own human nature to subdue it. He was tempted. He increased in wisdom. He didn't know when he would return.

Yet in the Isaiah verse Jesus was chosen to receive the Spirit of God even before he was anointed by God's Spirit.
The verse by Paul was after he had left the earth as a physical man.
So we've got a verse before he came saying God would put his spirit in him and we've got a verse after his resurrection saying the head of Christ is God. It's not like he was subordinate just while he was a man on the earth. He was chosen by God before he came. God is his head after he physically left.

The anointing. How could God anoint his Son with his Spirit if his Son and his Spirit were equal to the anoint-er?
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Hows about if the essential of God as we can understand it, is equal in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and that this can in no way be understood by the indications of scripture alone and simple forms of reductive and expansive logic, but rather it becomes evident that the Holy Spirit is equally God by the simple prophecy of God with us restored in experience-- restored from the top down and the bottom up--which is the case of Christianity. Otherwise scripture and prophecy is just a play thing-- entertaining at best. Living out of the grace of God through Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit makes every day Holy. The Holy Spirit that prophecied of it to a few that He would be willing that all would prophecy from this same spirit begs to a saint that the same spirit if to both ( ancient prophets and Christians) is the face of God to present man and God to all individuals who chose to walk in relationship or within the image maker and the image of which we are made or re-made in Christ. The image and the image maker is the Holy Spirit if we are to say that the prophets are God inspired. The prophets prophecied of Christ through the Holy Spirit and Christ prophecied that the Holy Spirit would be sent us or restored to us...
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Isaiah 42:1
Here is My Servant, whom I uphold, My Chosen One, in whom My soul delights. I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will bring justice to the nations.

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Acts 4:26
The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.'

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


Now some will say that because of the incarnation, Jesus gave up his divinity. Maybe he didn't give it up but used his own human nature to subdue it. He was tempted. He increased in wisdom. He didn't know when he would return.

Yet in the Isaiah verse Jesus was chosen to receive the Spirit of God even before he was anointed by God's Spirit.
The verse by Paul was after he had left the earth as a physical man.
So we've got a verse before he came saying God would put his spirit in him and we've got a verse after his resurrection saying the head of Christ is God. It's not like he was subordinate just while he was a man on the earth. He was chosen by God before he came. God is his head after he physically left.

The anointing. How could God anoint his Son with his Spirit if his Son and his Spirit were equal to the anoint-er?
Exactly, The word Christ means the anointed one. Anointed with the spirit of God. If Jesus were God, then why would he be anointed? God would not anoint himself with himself.
 
Hows about if the essential of God as we can understand it, is equal in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and that this can in no way be understood by the indications of scripture alone and simple forms of reductive and expansive logic, but rather it becomes evident that the Holy Spirit is equally God by the simple prophecy of God with us restored in experience-- restored from the top down and the bottom up--which is the case of Christianity. Otherwise scripture and prophecy is just a play thing-- entertaining at best. Living out of the grace of God through Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit makes every day Holy. The Holy Spirit that prophecied of it to a few that He would be willing that all would prophecy from this same spirit begs to a saint that the same spirit if to both ( ancient prophets and Christians) is the face of God to present man and God to all individuals who chose to walk in relationship or within the image maker and the image of which we are made or re-made in Christ. The image and the image maker is the Holy Spirit if we are to say that the prophets are God inspired. The prophets prophecied of Christ through the Holy Spirit and Christ prophecied that the Holy Spirit would be sent us or restored to us...
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I've heard it said that if you try to understand it you could lose your mind and maybe even your soul. At some point it may be better to let the mystery be.
 
I've heard it said that if you try to understand it you could lose your mind and maybe even your soul. At some point it may be better to let the mystery be.
I can't buy that. And by this, anyone whom acknowledges that it spurs a mystery..... should ask themselves where is the missing context from the NT. Nowhere to any church did any writer of the NT whether they were writing to a church they had moved on from.....or a church they never visited, such as Romans, nowhere did the writer explain this mystery. Nowhere did the writer feel the need to clarify, explain, speak of the so called mystery. No where do we see a controversy growing that needs clarification. Nowhere do we see a referring to scripture as if it's in the OT. No where do we see a writer comment on "the Jews would not accept that Jesus was God" . Or "a sect rose up to divide the church over whether the HS was separate identity.". No where do we see that God being 1 means 3. What people don't realize is that the Jews were extremely monotheistic. That's what separated them from the others. Now to think that they just accepted this 1 is 3 without a fight..... or at least controversy??? But instead.... we see detailed controversy over food sacrificed to idols. We see clarification to the place of women. Surely those not blinded can see this. It's much more about what's not in the NT than what's actually in there. And..... they should consider that the NT was not given as a whole. It was one letter to this church..... another letter to another church......... later all of these being combined. So, those few so called taken out of context proof text.... they did not go everywhere. The Galatian church did not receive anything to distort. Nor did several of the other church letters...... If's only as a whole that the few socalled trin proof text add up to be anything that might lead one down this path..... With the exception of John, being that most of it comes from here
 
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