THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY

God would not impregnate a virgin. Steal Joseph bride for his use. So many problems. How if the HS came upon Mary, is the HS not the Father rather than the Father? The virgin story is a much later addition. The epistles never mentioned it. It was added later due to not real life but a reverse hindsight, interpretation of scriptures. The story of God's helping an underdog King to win..... so that he would know that it was by God's might, not his own, was..... not that a virgin... which is not able to be proved.... no one really knows who a virgin is... so why would that be a sign.... no the story has to do with time. In the OT days, wars were won by man power. Counting heads.. In time, the underdog kings man power would never increase to the point of being able to stand up to the opposition. Even if his man power increases, so does the opposition. He could never expect to win.... [parallel picture of battle against sin] but God said ask for a sign.... but he did not therefore God gave him a sign. In the amount of time.... from conception to weaning off, he would be victorious over his opposition. This would be a clear sign that he as a king, did not do this. Clearly in 3 or 4 years, he could not conquer his openet. But he did.... thus he knew "God is with us". It had nothing to do with virgin. Even CARM acknowledges that the word is maiden, not virgin. So this gives you a sense of dating of the writing of Matthew once you realize how it got written into Matthew as a wrong interpretation of the OT. More, if Jesus is not the son of Adam, then he could not be the coming Christ. OT lineage was never, son of a woman. it was always son of a man. Women were nothing notable in that day. All through the scriptures, we see son of Seth, son of Abram, son of... a man. Never a woman. No, Jesus was Adams biological son. Yet was the Son of God through adoption, the first born from the dead, firstborn of many brothers. Modern Christianity has not the slightest clue what's in the OT. They have no idea what the term "Son of God" means.
Here's something for the sunday school teachers. LOL, you can't use it though, LOL, unless you acknowledge the true usuage of the story. Abortion.... notice that God used the point of conception in this "time period". He could have used a different example of a time period, but he dated this miracle of defeating the kings opposition from time of conception.
 
What about the Son? Even if he "was" the actual son of God? If God magically impregnated a virgin? Gave him some type of male DNA.

Suppose he's not a pre-existing part of the Godhead but a pre-exisiting part of God's Word. In other words he only pre-existed in God's mind/word. He was perhaps already created as we were in those seven days of Creation.

Wouldn't he still need to be given authority from his Father? Considering that he was/is a son? There is no equality in a father/son relationship.

The authority gave him the image of his father. If you have seen me, you have seen my Father.
Adam failed to represent, Last point of yours...God to the world. Notice in Genesis the roll call, of the Fathers who begat a son "in their own image" line after line after line. Where Adam failed to represent God, Jesus did so represent God to the world, to the extent that if you have seen me you have seen the Father, the exact representation of his being, in the image of God..... thus God was pleased.
Lets talk about authority. In the OT, the patriarchs of the family eventually gave his household over to the oldest son. They did not have a business up town for the son to work at. No, their lively hood came from the land. They had land, slaves, cattle, etc. The family business. The eldest son at some point was given all authority. The Father, taking a back seat. No quarrel or battle for power from siblings. It was just a known fact that the eldest son was given control/authority over the household. His power, his might, his authority, etc. He ran the household/business. All that was the Father's was his. Same parallel of the Son of God. A point in time.. all authority has been given to me. It was not his before. It was given. This is why the Jews were mad when he said he was the son of God, because they knew the meaning of son, 1st born son, that it imply's equal to the Father, after a point once the authority had been given.
 

Madman

Senior Member
The Church anathematized Arius in 320~321, for his heretical teaching on Christ. Followers of the Jehovah's Witness movement are Arian in belief.
 
Thread starter #144
Everlasting Father some sects argue that "Father" is not a name; yet they certainly contend that "the everlasting Father" is a name of Jesus and try to prove by this that Jesus is "the Father" of the New Testament (Isa. 9:6, 7). Ancient Hebrews and Greeks and other oriental people call anyone who is the originator of a custom, or who has come peculiarity or habit that distinguished him from others, the father of that custom, or the child of that habit. Thus Satan is called "father of lies" because he originated them (John 8:44).
 
Everlasting Father some sects argue that "Father" is not a name; yet they certainly contend that "the everlasting Father" is a name of Jesus and try to prove by this that Jesus is "the Father" of the New Testament (Isa. 9:6, 7). Ancient Hebrews and Greeks and other oriental people call anyone who is the originator of a custom, or who has come peculiarity or habit that distinguished him from others, the father of that custom, or the child of that habit. Thus Satan is called "father of lies" because he originated them (John 8:44).
What was the name of Jesus before he incarnate as man? Was he known as Jesus, Son, Christ, or just Heavenly Family?
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
What was the name of Jesus before he incarnate as man? Was he known as Jesus, Son, Christ, or just Heavenly Family?
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is. 9:6

“And as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth.” Job 19:25

“Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” Is. 60:16

“…She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel, which means 'God with us.’” Is. 7:14

“The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner stone.” Ps. 118:22

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
  • The “I Am” in whom Abraham rejoiced was Jesus - John 8:56-58
  • The Lord who motivated Moses was Christ - Hebrew 11:26
  • The Redeemer who brought them out of Egypt was Jesus - Jude 5
  • The Rock in the wilderness was Christ - 1 Corinthians 10:4
  • The King of Isaiah’s temple vision was the Son - John 12:40–41
 
  • The “I Am” in whom Abraham rejoiced was Jesus - John 8:56-58
  • The Lord who motivated Moses was Christ - Hebrew 11:26
  • The Redeemer who brought them out of Egypt was Jesus - Jude 5
  • The Rock in the wilderness was Christ - 1 Corinthians 10:4
  • The King of Isaiah’s temple vision was the Son - John 12:40–41
But how was he known before his incarnation? Was he always the Son of God or did he become that Son when he became a Human?
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
But how was he known before his incarnation? Was he always the Son of God or did he become that Son when he became a Human?
Psalm 2

Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
“Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”

He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
“Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”

“I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
 
Psalm 2

Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
“Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”

He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
“Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”

“I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This verse makes it appear that the Son pre-existed.
 
Absolutely the Son has always existed. There has been a Trinity since the beginning!
Oh, OK. the reason I asked was because you underlined;

You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.


I thought maybe you believed in "Incarnational Sonship." That's more of a Oneness belief vs a Trinity belief.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth" (Genesis 1:26).​

The phrase "let us" again gives the idea of plurality. The word "us" cannot refer to angels because angels do not create.


Therefore, in the first chapter of the Bible we have a hint of the Trinity with the plural title Elohim used with a singular verb and God speaking and saying, "Let us."


More References To God Being Referred To As "Us"

The words "let us" is used elsewhere of God speaking in Genesis. After Adam and Eve sinned the Bible records.


Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever (Genesis 3:22).​

At the incident at the Tower of Babel we read God saying.


Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech (Genesis 11:7).​

Isaiah the prophet recorded God saying.


Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me" (Isaiah 6:8).​

Another Plural Name For God - Maker

There is another instance in the Isaiah where there is a second plural name for God.


For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called (Isaiah 54:5).​

The word translated, "Maker" is plural in Hebrew. Therefore we have a second Hebrew word that is plural that is used of God.


The Clearest Old Testament Statement

There is one statement in the Old Testament that gives a fairly clear indication of the Trinity.


Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Isaiah 48:16,17).​

In verse sixteen, God the Son is speaking. He identifies the Father [the Sovereign Lord] and His Spirit as having sent Him. In the next verse, the Son is clearly spoken of as the Lord. Consequently these verses identify three distinct Persons who are God without denying the fact there is only one God.


There Is A Distinction Between The Lord In Heaven And The One On Earth

The Old Testament also makes a distinction between the Lord who is in heaven and the one on earth.


Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus He overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities - and also the vegetation in the land (Genesis 19:24).​

Each Member Is Specifically Mentioned In The Old Testament

In addition, each member of the Trinity is mentioned in the Old Testament.


God The Father

There are Old Testament passages that refer to God the Father.


For you are our father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our father; our Redeemer from of old is your name (Isaiah 63:16).​

Malachi wrote.


Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our ancestors? (Malachi 2:10).​

The Son Is Found In The Old Testament

The Son finds mention in the Old Testament. The Psalmist wrote.


Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions (Psalm 45:6,7).​

In the Second Psalm we read.


I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill. I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you (Psalm 2:6,7)​

Later, in that same Psalm, it says.


Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in him (Psalm 2:12)​

In the Book of Proverbs it says.


Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know! (Proverbs 30:4).​

The Messiah Has Divine Titles

God's Son, the Messiah is described with divine titles.


"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David Or up from David's line} a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land" (Jeremiah 23:5,6).​
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Isaiah wrote.


For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6).​

The Angel Of The Lord

The Angel of the Lord has the power to forgive sins


"See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him (Exodus 23:20,21).​

The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit, or the "Spirit of the Lord," is also mentioned in the Old Testament. In the Book of Genesis we read.


Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters (Genesis 1:2).​

Isaiah recorded the following.


The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him - the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD - and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears (Isaiah 11:2,3).​

Isaiah also wrote.


The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners (Isaiah 61:1).​

Later Isaiah wrote.


Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them (Isaiah 63:10).​

The Spirit of God is distinguished from the Lord in the account leading up to the Flood.


Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years" (Genesis 6:3)​

The Trinity Is Foreshadowed In Benedictions

The Trinity is also foreshadowed in the triple benediction of Numbers 6:24-27.


The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace. So they will put my name on the Israelites, and I will bless them.​

The doxology of Isaiah 6:3 also gives hint of the Trinity.


And they were calling to one another: Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory (Isaiah 6:3).​

Jacob Blessed Joseph Three Times


When Jacob blessed his son Joseph, he used the name of God three times. Each time God's name was identified differently.


Then he blessed Joseph and said, "May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm may he bless these boys. May they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they increase greatly upon the earth (Genesis 48:15,16).​

While this is not conclusive, the triple benedictions are consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.


Why Is There Not More Said?

If the doctrine of the Trinity is true, then why don't we find more explicit references in the Old Testament? Part of the answer may lie in the culture in which the Old Testament was written. Israel was surrounded by nations who were all polytheistic - they believed in many gods. It was important for Israel to realize that the God of the Bible is the only God who existed. Consequently the oneness of God was stressed. After this truth was firmly understood by Israel then the Lord revealed further truth about His basic nature - that He is a Trinity.


Summary

Although the Trinity is not explicitly taught in the Old Testament, the basis of this doctrine is certainly found there. First there is the use of the plural noun for God Elohim that is used with a singular verb. This gives a hint of the Trinity. The Hebrew word for Maker, which describes God, is also in the plural.


There are also passages where God speaks of himself with the words, "Let us." This is another possible reference to the Trinity.


There are also specific passages where the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are mentioned. Add to this passages that foreshadow the Trinity with the triple benediction. These passages, however, do not reveal the doctrine of the Trinity. This was left for the New Testament to accomplish. The Old Testament does not have a developed doctrine of the Trinity. However truths about the Trinity are foreshadowed in the Old Testament.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Oh, OK. the reason I asked was because you underlined;

You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.


I thought maybe you believed in "Incarnational Sonship." That's more of a Oneness belief vs a Trinity belief.
I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit always existed from the beginning. There are glimpses of the language in the Old Testament, but clearly defined for us in the New Testament.
 
Thread starter #156
Everlasting Father some sects argue that "Father" is not a name; yet they certainly contend that "the everlasting Father" is a name of Jesus and try to prove by this that Jesus is "the Father" of the New Testament (Isa. 9:6, 7). Ancient Hebrews and Greeks and other oriental people call anyone who is the originator of a custom, or who has come peculiarity or habit that distinguished him from others, the father of that custom, or the child of that habit. Thus Satan is called "father of lies" because he originated them (John 8:44).
Jabal is called "the father of tent dwellers" because he originated that mode of life (Gen. 4:20, 21). Abraham is called "the father of circumcision" because it started with him (rom. 4:12). God is called "the Father of mercies" because He is merciful (2 Cor. 1:3). Men are called "children of disobedience" and "children of wrath" because they live in disobedience and are destined to wrath (Eph. 2:2, 3. see also Matt. 9:15; 13:38; Luke 16:8; Col. 3:6; 2 Sam. 7:10; Job. 41:34).
 
Thread starter #157
The term "the everlasting Father " literally means "the Father of eternity," "the planner of the ages," or "the giver of eternal life" as in Heb. 1:2 (margin) John 3:15-18; 6:54, 68; 10:28; 14:6; 17:2, 3; Rom. 5:21; 1 John 1:2; 5:11.The Son is called this because He died to impart eternal life to others, and because it was through Him the Father of the New Testament planned the ages as well as gives eternal life. He is not the only person in the Godhead that could be called this, for both the Father and the Spirit also give life and had a part in the plan of God (Rom. 6:23; 1 Pet. 5:10; John. 3:15-18; 15:24, 26; 17:3; Rom. 8:2, 10, 11; Gal. 6:8).
The reason the Son is called this in Isa. 9: 6, 7 is to state some marks of divinity in connection with the Son that was to be born, so that men would recognize that He is as much God in nature as are the Father and the Spirit. If there had been no marks of divinity in the prophecies concerning the Son, no one would have taken Him as Divine as they do God. The phrase "the everlasting Father" does not prove that Jesus is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament. All three persons in the Godhead, by virtue of being God, can all be called "the everlasting Father" or "giver of eternal life," for this term has nothing to do with "Fatherhood" and "begetting" of a child, but to the peculiar idiomatic usage as stated above. All three persons could not be "the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," for only one could be the Son and only one could be the Father, as we have already seen.
 
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